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Hard countersteering

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' started by Not4Resale, Feb 11, 2009.

  1. Gradually tip it over as I go

  2. I leave it a bit later then push the bars to achieve a deep angle quickly

    0 vote(s)
  1. Alright we all know that it's good form to countersteer right?

    Well I'm concerned, i'm quite partial to doing it actively and pushing my weight on the inside peg.

    My question is thus, I do it late and i push pretty bloody hard... I read somewhere that if you turn later, you end up going quicker as you spend less time navigating the corner and more time upright and flogging it.


    In no way am i advocating a loss of smoothness or erratic riding where i'm saying push hard at the last minute. I am asking whether it's a good way to get quicker or if it's a good way to run off the road.


    I'm merely asking whether you blokes think that pushing the bars quite hard to turn late is a good practice or if it could lead to an off.

    Am i destabilizing myself through this practice? Am i better to gradually enter the corner or do i want to wait till i have to turn then push it to a pretty deep lean quickly?

    I'll chuck up a poll to get a show of hands as to what people prefer to do themselves.

    If none of this is relevant to you or you just want to have a dig at how much of a tosser I am for wanting to be a bit quicker, chuck your two cents in too. Flame wars are just as fun as healthy discussions. :grin:

  2. The main reason for countersteering firmly, as I understand it, is that only once the bike is leaned into the corner can it actually begin to turn around the corner.

    You spend less time initiating the turn and more time actually turning.

    That and you have the option for braking longer on the straight, etc.

    That said, I tend to be lazy about trying to put the Tiger on its side instantaneously unless the road demands it or some f***er pulls out without warning. ;)
  3. From what I've learned from the more experienced riders, the reason to initiate your turn late is more of a safety reason (although it could have other benefits like being able to go faster), as it allows you to see more around the corner. This is something I have been doing since a ride I did with Hornet and Spots and has been working well for me.
    My VTR250 is pretty light, as am I (70kg) so I can't really comment on the "pushing bars hard" part. I just give the bar a nudge and over we go :LOL:
    Weighting the pegs and whether or not it helps with turning has been debated quite a bit, I've yet to see a response from my bike from putting pressure on the inside peg, however it's a little hard to isolate this action without letting go of the bars mid corner :LOL:.
    On roads I'm familiar with, sometimes I play around with different lines. For example there is a right hand corner going down on Macquarie Pass that I turn really early to avoid a bad patch of road that upsets my bike if I take my "usual" line.
    I'm really interested to see what other riders have to say on this topic.

    Edit: I believe initiating your turn late has other safety reasons besides being able to see around the corner more. It also gives you a safer line to exit, and a larger margin for error.
  4. Exactly why i posted this. It's something that's i've been pondering of late...
  5. I turn mine in late and hard. Not only does it give you more vison threw the corner, but you can hold your speed better as well
  6. I guess I haven't focused a great deal on the way I turn in - I just did what was natural to me. Hard on both brakes, drop in, throttle on. I've never had to fight the bike or push it around. Apart from the braking it's pretty smooth I guess.
  7. It all depends. The faster you want to go, the later you'll leave it and the harder you'll counter steer. Unless you learn to counter-steer hard, fast, and late, your ability to get through corners more quickly will always be limited. If you think you're doing it easy now, then that's only 'cos you're still going slow - go in harder and later and you'll soon notice it. As I said, it all depends on how quickly you want to go.
  8. Thanks, this is the type of advice I want to hear. I wouldn't say easy, been practicing with this and noticing improvements but wanted to hear from others whether I was on the right path.

    Looks like the votings pretty evenly spread atm, I hope this turns to be an interesting thread. :grin:
  9. I just do road riding and i like leaving it late then countersteering because it just feels alot more fun to do it that way.

    There's other benefits which others have stated. ie being able to see around the corner better etc.

    I'm sure i could countersteer harder but the enjoyable part is being able to do it quickly and smoothly. Feels nice and doesn't scare yourself into thinking you'll loose the front.
  10. The most common mistake I see is people turning in too slowly and too early for the speed they are traveling.

    Of course there are other corners where you tip in slowly and early, decreasing radius under brakes, certain chicanes, and I'm sure heaps of examples on the street.
  11. Quite right. There are always scenarios, both track and street, where a slow tip-in is actually a good thing, these typically being places where you want to be turning around some longer corners but you haven't seen the exit yet and so can't commit to a full tip-in, and a few other scenarios (camber changes, chicanes as mentioned). It does depend on what the road is doing as well.
  12. while ive never been on a track im more of a late turner. more fun that way and prevents having too much lean as you hit the apex. gutters and bins and all that get in the way
  13. I probably got confused with the question asking about late apexing and hard countersteering simultaneously. (Though late apexing requires a forceful turn-in) :oops:

    I definitely try to delay my turn-ins, partly because:

    * it reduces the chance of an accidental early apex (risks running wide on corner exit):

    * start-wide, exit-tight (just about the 'latest' apex you can have) sets you up nicely in S curves, which is what this RTA campaign talks about:

    Though as mentioned above by FLUX and devotard, sometimes the road demands other cornering lines. It's all part of reading the road and planning where you need to be for the next corner.
  14. It all depends on the corner and the visability.

    A beautiful open corner with visibility to the exit can be taken with a slower, early lean in and a smooth radius, while the same corner with limited visiblity of the exit might demand turning later and harder to increase the view piont through the corner before commiting to the turn.

    As has been stated above horses for courses. I am happy to admit to not being an expert, this is how it was explained to me, and seems to work out alright.
  15. Good to see you thinking about your riding. :)

    Firstly...it is not a case of doing it one way or another...You must know how to corner in all methods.

    As a GENERAL RULE...the late turn-in does offer you a better view of the road ahead provided you are approaching the corner out wide...BUT...it can be a dangerous move if the rest of your skills are not up to snuff or your judgment is off.
    This type of cornering has less room for error in the choice of turn in point, and requires a higher level of commitment to the turn.

    In chosing a later turn in point, you are making a conscious decision which is going to require a much quicker reaction when the point does come, so your counter-steering needs to be a strong, positive and defined move. Accodingly...all other things need to be in place and ready for it...(body position, gearing, speed, etc etc.) If not, you risk running wide and very quickly into danger, with little time for corrction if you stuff it up.

    On roads I don't know too well, I will ride more conservatively, since I cannot fully commit to the corner.

    I personally prefer the later turn-in, but can do all kinds of methods to suit the conditions, corner type, refined by the mood I am in. So if you are gravitiating in that direction because it seems to be your style, make sure your technique can match it.

    One last thing...This kind of turn does put more pressure on your front tyre grip, so you have to know your tyres limitations or you might wash it out from under you if you get too aggressive.

    Just a few quickish thoughts to start with...

  16. Thanks John, all great advice, I have been reading up on the different corners and what methods to use for all the different kinds so hopefully on the right track in that direction. :grin:

    Just got a little query on a bit of the advice. :p

    What's actually knocking out the grip? I'd assume that it's a combination of the front suspension getting loaded due to braking and the pushing of the bars hard which would be moving the contact patch of the tyre with the road quite rapidly.

    Am i on the right track in this thought process? Is it the countersteering or the loaded suspension that's taking my front grip the most?

    See i wouldn't have even thought of this without you lot! :LOL:

    NR is awesome! Kudo's to all! :p
  17. I've been revisiting and practising the "late turn point and quicksteering technique" as well as the "vigorous counter-steer to bring it up right again coming out of the corner", at both the track and on the road recently.
    I find that they allow me to get on the gas sooner.
    :D :D :D
  18. On the right track. I think it's more to do with inertia. When you lean the bike over, the bike starts falling to its side. Do it aggressively enough and the front wheel will actually leave the road momentarily as gravity hasn't had the time to pull the bikes mass towards the earth.

    Best to imagine it as like someone kicking your feet out from under you really hard. Do it fast enough with enough sideways push, and your feet (and you) won't even be in contact with the ground for a short while as your body rotates mid-air while it's falling. Same thing with a bike. A counter-steer is pretty much the same as someone kicking the front wheel out from under the bike. Do it fast enough and it unloads completely.

    I haven't really had it happen to me when entering a corner even though it's definitely gotten very light, but on transitions from full lean to full lean when I've pushed hard enough, the front tyre has left the road momentarily just after the bike moves past full upright.
  19. :shock:

    So DON'T countersteer so hard or DO countersteer so hard???

    I am severely stressed about doing doing it now! Arrrgh this learning be hard! :oops:
  20. Do it as hard as you want. You'll figure it out. Counter-steering hard won't make the front wheel wash out and cause you to crash. It may make the front leave the road momentarily if you do it hard enough, but it won't make you crash. What will make you crash is if you crank the bike right over to the very edge of the front tyre as fast as you possibly can. When the bike goes to slow down from its descent, that's what can wash out the front tyre and make you crash, but by golly you'd have to be trying really hard.

    It's fun making the front go all light and flighty. Practise and practise, and it won't worry you so much.