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VIC Good luck for Parliamentary RSC

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by Vertical C, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Good luck to all those speaking on behalf of the riders in the Parliamentary RSC in the next few days. Even us from NSW need you to do well as what you get we will get sooner or later.

    If you need any analysis or fact checking etc post it up, want to help in any way.

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  2. If anyone is attending over the next couple of days it would be useful to know the sort of questions they are asking.

    John K was there this morning. He was there for the VicPol questions and hopefully he'll pass on the information tonight.
  3. Mmm id love to hear what's going on. Let us know what's in store.
  4. Fellow netriders be strong, powerful and humble.
  5. I know while some of us got the night off and went and enjoyed seeing Cam Donald, the crew that are presenting are still polishing and putting on the final touches.

    Good luck folks, give em hell.
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  6. Some notes from the first day taken by John K.

    Vic Roads

    Started with Committee asking questions:

    Q. What progress is there being made with (Victorian Auditor General's Office)VAGO programs?
    Ans. There are gaps in the data. VAGO has directed Vic Roads to complete a review, which is being done via MAG.

    Q. What is the Interagency relationship between VicRoads - TAC?
    Ans. Are working on it. Still developing the best way to go.

    Q. VMAC - MAG, what is the difference?(this question appears to come from the Ulysses submission).
    Ans. Gave a long winded explanation, that it was MAG is a mirror. Explained the role change. They believe the group is poised to do a lot. But there are issues. Its too early to make a judgement on its accountability.

    Q. What is Vic Roads doing about Off Road riding?
    Ans. Its not actually a responsibility of Vic Roads, but they do things about it.
    What? Everything that they do with Road Riding. Problem is to clarify the situation. DSE work was commended.

    Q. WRB? Advise what studies and if released.
    Ans. Have looked at conflicts. Have ID'd posts as a problem. Gave explanation of Rub Rail installation. Position statement - Not aware of evidence to show hazard to M/C.

    Q. Black Spot Funding Qualifications?
    Ans. Its all about accident clusters and priority funding justification.

    Q. GLS?
    Ans. A work in progess. Done't yet have approval. Working on a proposal. Plan to use out sourced trainers. But need QA. Don't want to over regulate. Lot of work still to do..

    Q. Automatic Licence vs Geared?
    Ans. There is merit in dividing it up. But still a shortage of data.

    Q. Multicultural Message in communications?
    Ans. All docs meet the req. Road safety? No answer.

    Q. Anti M/C Bias?
    Ans. yes, they have heard it. They are looking at improving any bias.

    Q. Lane splitting/filtering?
    Ans. Some work is being done. With adequate controls there are many things that can be done safely. But regulation is difficult. Vic Roads is looking at finding a balance.
    Q. levy use of funds? Are results publically available?
    Ans. As a general rule - yes. But small number no - re public usability.

    They then gave a presentation which generated the following questions:

    Q. Road craft - ABS?
    Ans. gave an interesting response - there are potential benefits. More research required.


    I didn't get many notes. Gave a very general presentation on how the Govt Agencies are having mixed success. Mentioned SA here. Cited Off Road Riding as a big problem (this set the tone for the rest of the day on this topic). Completeness of the information is the issue, there is a need to join/integrate the agencies better.

    Q. Exposure?
    Ans. Look at different characteristics of modes. Complexity was discussed.


    They repeated all their stats from their submission. Claim 70% of riders at fault. Unlicenced/Unreg big problem. Lack of speed ID. Bikes photographed from front average 13.27 kph over the limit.

    Q. Do you have a motorcycle licence?
    Ans. Keiren Walsh - no. But his assistants were both riders

    Q. What progress re VAGO?
    Ans. Meetings are in progress. Relying on Vic Roads.
    Seemed not to have a good grip here......

    Q. What data should be collected? Who should be responsible?
    Ans. On road data - Police. Off Road Vic Pol not required to do it. Its a matter of when to report it - Public Roads or Private property. Off Road is a grey area - what is a road? Often riders don't report properly, because their bikes aren't registered.

    Q. Are there training benefits from going from Off road to On road?
    Ans. Yes. Its how police riders are trained.

    Police then spoke about splitting licences - ie separate car and bike licences.

    Q. Hi Vis Clothing? What?
    Ans. Hi Viz clothing as put forward in their submission.
    Nothing new here.

    Q. What has been done for Off Road?
    Ans. Some targeted ops. varies from region to region, cop station to cop station.

    Q. Anti M/C Bias?
    Ans. No excuses given here for direct targeting. Adamant that they are all about reducing road trauma. Yellow Flag/Black Flag got a mention here.

    Q. Experience on FNP? How?
    Ans. Its a problem. Talked about various option - not necessarily a plate - electronic transponder? Cited that way too many riders avoid detection.

    Q.Lane Filtering/Splitting?
    Ans. Explained it - said its dangerous! Needs research.

    Q. Urgent Duty Driving?
    Ans. "Attitude" is taught during police training.
    Not sure where this was going....

    Use of bicycle lanes came up here - not supported, as it dangerous the assistant claims (he is a bicycle rider as well as a M/C rider). Seems that some riders do't behave properly in bicycle lanes and that some "undertaking of bicycle riders" is done by M/C riders.

    I questioned him outside after they had finished during a break citing that maybe some etiquette training may be the way to go in relation to M/C riders.

    Q. Is there a need to put drivers through rider training pre-licence?
    Ans. Yes. More knowledge is good, as long as there is no cost impact.

    Q. Since lates TAC ad, has there been less lane splitting?
    Ans. Anecedotely - No.

    Q. 25% of rider deaths Unlicenced, what was the cause?
    Ans. No data available.

    Q. Driver Attitude?
    Ans. Related their answer to Police Training - Skill/Knowledge/Attitude.
    Police are taught to ask themselves, "Are they fit to drive that day?" Police training of their riders is not around speed. Focus is on control and road craft. there has been a culture shift in VicPol. Police pushing Shared Responsiblity.

    Q. Zero BAC?
    Ans. Need to look at data.

    Matthew Zammit
    Matthew attended as a visitor. See post he left on MRA Facebook page. He is a SMIDSY victim. Chair invited him to address them and they gave him 1/2 an hour. Very interesting points raised and Chair asked him to put in a formal submission. Quote of the Day - "TAC give everyone a lifetime Rating One."

    Gave a presentation citing what they do and how they do it, as in their submission. The standard stuff.

    Then interesting thing - they have discovered SMIDSY.
    Research has uncovered:
    - Drivers don't think about riders vs rider thinking about drivers
    - Riders and Drivers acknowledge accidents were fault of both parties.
    - Backs up research riders are hard to see.

    Spoke about TAC Preventative Programs (propaganda)

    Cite TAC premiums. In 2010 TAC paid $152 million for riders (20% of total TAC compensation bill) $53 mill collected from M/C = 3.5% TAC revenue.

    Talked about working with stakeholders - not much directly with riders.....

    Q. How effective is the current TAC Ad?
    Ans. TAC tracks out comes. Ad was seen by riders. There is ongoing tracking - don't know exact impact. Its more about changing attitude and behaviour. Injury outcomes not directly measurable.[/I
    {TE comment} TAC rate success by pthe number of people who recall the advert - not by changes of behaviour

    ]Q. Off Road activity?
    Ans. have been very limited. there is a problem reaching them easily. Its easy to get to on road because of licence system.

    Q. Do courts have a relationship with TAC? Are TAC involved in Diversion Programs?
    Ans? No.

    Q.. Relationship with specific manufacturers?
    Ans. None specifically. But then they went on to cite use of Bosch, BMW and Honda......

    Q. Cross Subsidy - What if it was based on risk?
    Ans. Premiums need to remain affordable. Accompanied by lengthy explanation of how it works...[/I

    ]Q. TAC research show drivers don't see riders. By extension drivers may not see children, bicycle riders and other small obects etc. why don't TAC encourage drivers to "look?
    Ans. TAc are just repeating what is told to them. The compounding factor for motorcycles is Speed - they go too fast and there isn't enough reaction time, is the phenomena (excuse) given.....

    Q. What does a death cost?
    This was the Killer Question>
    Ans. Things vary a lot - then went of on a tangent re quadriplegics. The when pulled back into line the question was put again, '"So, it $1mill for a quadriplegic and $100,000 for a dead rider?" Met with silence. So the Committee accepted that this was the answer - a dead rider saves the TAC money!
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  7. Great effort. When time permits, I'd like to hear thoughts on how it all went down with the committee.
  8. Hopefully JK will post tonight about his impressions.

    I believe Rob Salvv is there today as well so we should get some good information.
  9. Thanks for all this.

    I wanted to comment on this one.

    In Victoria pedestrian deaths went from 15% of all road deaths in 2009 to 18% of all road deaths in 2010.

    Surely they cannot be speeding as a pedestrian as well. Another SMIDSY, dismissing it off to speed is missing the true cause of why motorcyclists crash.
  10. Thanks very much for posting it the Q & A.

    I was wondering if it would be a good idea for John K. to offer some of his rides to the parliamentarians for free, mostly to give them an idea of what it is actually like to be on a motorcycle?
  11. Well it's always been the same ol same ol with TAC..
    They throw all the reasons why crashes happen in the first place into the too hard basket..
    They'd rather conceed that accidents will happen and try and reduce the damage by pushing their speed kills agenda and using their influence and statistics in a way to push lowering speed limits.
    They use speed as a cause for everything wrong although their own statistics say it's only causes 30% of fatalities..
    Go figure..
  12. Today I had the opportunity to speak at the open hearing. I gave it all I could and hope it was good enough. Initially I was worried that 10 minutes was a long time and I would not be able to utilise this time but the reality it was quite the opposite and I was unable to fit everything in even with extra time. I probably needed more like an hour.

    The members of the Road Safety Committee and their staff are decent people. They helped and guided me through the process and I cannot thank them enough. The enormity of the task ahead of them is sure to test their strength and stamina.
  13. What did you talk about? Were you representing a group?
  14. Today at the hearing I also met jdkarmch and robsalvv plus some other good people. JD spoke well and was well respected by all. Rob speaks tomorrow and he will also do well.
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  15. I tried to put everything in. TAC, VicRoads, Trail bike riding for juniors, the benefits of riding motorcycles, the Reefton Spur, gave netrider a good mention and more but it was bits and pieces of everything due to the time factor. As you have previously said, for these hearings it is definitely better to have four to five points.

    EDIT: No group just as an individual
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  16. Sir Ride Alot is a passionate bloke, that's for sure... kinda explains many of his empassioned posts on NR. :) I was laughing on the inside at how he managed to get 15minutes from his allotted 10mins! lol

    I'm too tired to give my impressions today, but I've found it a fascinating experience thus far. The RSC appear genuinely interested in all input... they will have a mamoth task distilling it down into something meaningful... The public hour is a new initiative and was a roaring success. I'd encourage future inquiries to employ it.
  17. ...I just spotted that the RACV is presenting just before the VMC... I was going to submit my RACV section seperately as a tabled addendum... I might not now!

  18. Maurice Blackburn have been pursuing the idea of JK taking the committee for a ride for a while. While he offered to do it for free, for probity reasons if it happens it will need to be on a commercial basis.

    I'm presenting last today at 4.15 so we'll see what happens there. I did get a letter published in the Age today on the topic of FNPs and RFID. It's been slightly edited but I've got no complaints (it probably impoved it).

    I've also sent one to the Hun but I haven't seen it yet to see if they published anything. Rob, can you call me after your presentation to let me know what's happening and what sort of direction the inquiry is heading. Unfortunately I've been tied up with work all this week so haven't been able to get across the road to any of the sessions.

    The feedback I've been getting has been pretty positive however.
  19. Best of luck guys.
  20. It's here, just short of halfway down the page.

    Thanks Tony, appreciate your work.