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Going to court - Speeding fine

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by gprp1976, Mar 2, 2014.

  1. Dear Forumites,

    I need your advice about my chances to contest the speeding fine in court.Please find below the request for internal review describing the circumstances.My apologies for the long message.

    Date : 9/02/2014
    Ref : Penalty number xxxx
    Subject : Request to obtain documentation and internal review .

    I was stopped by S/C xxxx from Goulburn Police Station for the alleged speeding offence on 23 January at approx. 5:50AM. It was raining and dawn just started, therefore limited visibility had affected the road conditions.I have been advised that LIDAR detected a speed of 128 km/h in a 110 km/h zone and everything has been recorded.I use a VDR (Video Digital Recorder) in my car. As a result, I was able to review the video and my conversation with Officer Guest. It appears that the section of M31 near Goulburn where the alleged offence took place has a significant bend, trees and metal reflectors along the area.In general, I was driving from Gold Coast to Melbourne and stayed overnight in Sydney. My vehicle has a built-in satellite navigation unit model Eclipse AVN76EA.

    The sat nav has been calibrated during the service approx. 2 months ago. The unit provides a very accurate speed reading, hence I set up a cruise control based on the actual speed rather than car’s speedometer. Furthermore, I’ve tested my speed 3 times in Qld, NSW and Vic at “check your speed points “ and the results shown where correct and aligned with readings on my sat nav unit.

    You can check the police database to confirm that I have a completely clean driver history. I’ve realised that Officer xxxx was doing his job, therefore I wanted to prevent an unnecessarily argument. At the same time, I believe that the environment in which LIDAR has been used is error-prone.
    I carefully reviewed the standards AS 4691.1 and AS 4691.2—2003. I would like to request an internal review and to provide the following substantiations based on my discussion with S/C Guest and the AS standards testing procedures:

    1) AS 4691.2—2003 Part 2: Operational procedures
    2.2 EQUIPMENT CERTIFICATION .

    Request: Copy of the report confirming that the LIDAR involved has been tested and certified by a NATA testing authority as meeting the requirements set out in Clause 2.2.3 and been sealed by the testing authority within the past 12 months.

    2.4 SITE SELECTION
    2.4.4 Alignment Per above , I am concerned that the readings of LIDAR have been incorrect due topographical conditions of the M31 section near Goulburn and the range of measurement.

    Request: Copy of the audio and video records confirming that the registered speed was 128 km/h .

    2) Officer Guest has mentioned that LIDAR has been calibrated on 23rd January around 5AM.
    Request: I would like to obtain a copy of the following reports based on AS

    4691.1—2003 :



    APPENDIX A
    SIMULATOR METHOD FOR DETERMINATION OF A DEVICE’S ACCURACY
    FOR TARGET RANGE AND SPEED MEASUREMENT AND DATA VALIDATION CAPABILITIES

    A6 TEST REPORT FOF DETERMINATION OF OPERATIONAL BEAM WIDTH
    B7 TEST REPORT
    APPENDIX C

    PHYSICAL METHOD FOR DETERMINATION OF ACCURACY OF DISTANCE
    MEASUREMENTS

    C7 TEST REPORT

    In addition, I would like to request your internal review based on the requested documentation and to appeal to cancel the penalty notice if the facts prove that the speed measured might have been incorrect.
    __________________________________________________________________


    I've received a response from the State Debt Recovery office yesterday. In essence, I've been advised that reports that I've requested are not available and the speed reading on lidar device won't be displayed without a clear line of sight. Well, I didn't see the speed reading displayed on lidar neither when the cop approached me nor later in his car when I asked to provide his details.

    I am based in Melbourne, therefore I would like to evaluate my course of action and chances to succeed in court taking into account that the alleged offence took place in Goulburn.

    <formatted & removed from Politics>
     
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  2. #2 Justus, Mar 2, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
    How long is a piece of string?

    It is usually impossible to give any realistic or practical advice about your chances of success until someone has seen all the paperwork for your particular case, including court papers. It is not possible for a competent lawyer to conclude that you have no realistic chance of winning unless the lawyer has seen the charge and summons, the court file and preferably the police brief. Just as no doctor will amputate your leg without seeing an xray, no lawyer should recommend a plea of guilty without getting all the paperwork and eliminating all reasonable prospects of winning.

    Whether your circumstances amount to a good defence depends to a large degree on whether the police version of the incident is the same as yours. Usually they have a different story. If we assume the court will accept the police evidence then your version of events is largely irrelevant. In any case, you do not need a defence. The correct question is not whether you have a defence but whether the police have a water-tight case, and in order to comment on the strength of the police case it is necessary to see it.

    Asking for the documentation was a waste of time. They won't volunteer information. If they have something you want, there is a proper way to go about getting it.

    Your message was long because it was all over the place. Formatting alone nearly halved the length of your post.

    Justus.
     
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  3. What Justus said. No lawyer will give anything other than the most general information without access to the Court papers and your crim/driving history...familiarity with the Magistrate and their sentencing habits is also useful.

    You got pinged on Goulburn so it needs to be dealt with up there.
    Have a chat to Greg Murphy in Goulburn. He is a solicitor who does a lot of traffic and indictable matters...he really should go to the bar but enjoys being a solicitor advocate. He easy to find if you are of a mind.
     
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  4. The police are terrible in that area. Thursday saw a car hidden in the median strip in bushes so I don't know how he had a clear line of sight for speeding vehicles.
     
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  5. to gprp1976,

    I'm no lawyer, but good luck and I hope you win. I heard informally that radar is not reliable in adverse conditions. don't know about lidar.
     
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  6. Sat navs are very accurate at portraying your speed, and if you've had yours tested and calibrated as you say, then you've got to be pretty confident it's accurate - especially if you're setting your cruise control against it.
    You did 3 speed check points - again, confirmed as accurate you say.

    18 kph difference means a hell of a discrepancy somewhere.

    It depends what a clean licence is worth to you. If you decide to follow through it'll be interesting to hear the outcome.
     
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  7. Question:
    If it was raining and if there was heavy cloud cover, would the Sat-Nav still be accurate?
    I would have thought that would have some effect?
     
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  8. You have very carefully worded your letter to avoid ever saying that you weren't speeding. If you want to get out of it you're going to have to at the very least lie and say that you weren't speeding.
     
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  9. Hello and welcome to NR, sorry couldn't be bothered reading all that.
     
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  10. welcome aboard me too
     
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  11. Welcome. What did you say you rode?
     
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    • Like Like x 1
  12. Amongst others, that is the reason the request to review was doomed. That letter has fail written all over it.

    Bollocks. You do not need to lie to win. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

    I have shown on many occasions the minimum that is required is a desire to win, a half-switched on brain, a little research and the benefit of the presumption of innocence.

    Like the letter, it will get you nowhere. How does denial adduce evidence sufficient to meet the evidentiary burden which then forces police to exclude the defence? It doesn't. Why the need to even discuss speed? It is possible to win by challenging the method of detection. You can challenge any type of detection method especially if expert evidence and lots of your money is applied to the problem. Radar instruments are also known produce unreliable readings from vehicles which are out of view or from radar beams that are reflected from objects.

    On the other hand, rather than worry about the method of detection or accuracy of the reading, it could be easier to win by challenging other aspects of the case such as the validity of the legal processes. Sometimes the police are very good at speed detection but hopeless at running a court case.

    When the police fail to prove that they have followed the correct steps, or have failed to comply with strict time limits, or failed to issue, sign, date, file or serve court papers correctly, then prosecution might be unsuccessful. Unless the police get over those hurdles you are not required to start putting forward a defence. Many successfully defended speeding cases are won before any defence is provided or before the prosecutor even gets a chance to call the first witness.

    [NSW] Driving in bus lane fine, Vic licence.

    Justus.
     
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  13. #13 smileedude, Mar 2, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2014
    Why you would bother on a <20 over when you've got all your points and you know your guilty I have no idea.

    This letter screams I'm guilty and Im not prepared to lie to defend myself so I think the chances of getting this out before court are pretty low. They know they just have to ask did you speed and they've won.
     
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  14. Advice? Pay the ticket and move on.
     
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  15. Underrated post.
     
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  16. Being a Victorian, OP may believe that a 128km reading on a 100 area is in licence suspension territory, as it is in Victoria. Not sure that is the case in NSW.
     
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  17. If you don't think you were speeding than fight it. You've been accused of something you didn't do so are you really prepared to hand over your har earned $$ and cop demerrit points & a permanent record?
     
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  18. #18 Justus, Mar 3, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
    Whether he "fights" or pays the fine, he's still handing over "har earned $$". Alternatively he could just not pay and discard all notices received if he can live with ultimately having the right to drive on NSW roads withdrawn.

    Demerit points; not relevant either, unless Vicroads is contacted and further action is taken by them.

    Permanent record? What does it matter. Driving offences stay with you for life, and its more likely than not, that this is not his very first offence.


    Justus.
     
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  19. Still, I'd rather pay $$ to win/challenge my fight than just blindly hand it over! Unfortunately, we live under corrupt governments so we have to fight for every inch of our rights...and that costs $. We shouldn't have to pay but again, I'd rather use my money for me instead of lining the pockets of fat pin-striped suit wearing MF's in govt any more than we already do.

    Permanent record? It can matter sometimes for insurance purposes etc. I cetainly wouldn't want false accusations on my record! Like being black listed for credit!

    Your signature reads "targeting abuse of authority". Speeding fines/cameras are a classic example!
     
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  20. #20 Justus, Mar 3, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
    For someone who does not have much to say, you'd think the trade-off was more thought being put into responses. You sound like a cracked record.

    1. Whether he "fights" or pays the fine, he's still handing over "har earned $$". Alternatively he could just not pay and discard all notices received if he can live with ultimately having the right to drive on NSW roads withdrawn

    2. Demerit points; not relevant either, unless Vicroads is contacted and further action is taken by them

    3. Permanent record? What does it matter. Driving offences stay with you for life, and its more likely than not, that this is not his very first offence.


    Heard it all before.

    Insurance purposes? for an 18km/h speeding offence? You need to do more research on insurance. This has already been discussed. Use the search function.

    Black listed for credit? Ok then :LOL:

    Blah blah blah. Heard it all before.

    Your off-topic Q has been moved to the Dumb ass questions thread in the General forum. Come back when you have something new that is worth contributing to the discussion.

    Thanks,

    Justus.

    <edit - posts merged>
     
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