Welcome to Netrider ... Connecting Riders!

Interested in talking motorbikes with a terrific community of riders?
Signup (it's quick and free) to join the discussions and access the full suite of tools and information that Netrider has to offer.

[FLUX] I need some advice....

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' started by Chef, Jan 15, 2011.

  1. ....I'm trying to get the Scandinavian flick to work for me but it's only working sometimes. Or am i only supposed to use it sometimes?

    And can you describe the technique and your reference points when you use it?

    Damn you Scandinavians!
    Cheers Cheffie.
  2. you do that on a bike?
  3. inside line
    corner circumference/2 (or close to it)
    inside @ circumference/4
    that's it.
  4. It's for when you really need to steer from the rear and keep the nose in tight. Hairpins are a prime example. Sharp off camber corners another.
    You are taught this in a few of the Scandinavian country licensing programs. I wish ours were as good.
    You are washing off speed on the opposite side, allowing you to power through the on side. But if you have timed it to early you can still wash off on the on side.
    So for a left. Flick right - brake - handful of opposit lock - off brakes - car should still slide sideways a bit then grab - ready with another handful of the opposit opposit lock - hole appears - boot it.
    Too early and hit the brakes on the right hand slide till the hole appears.
    Hole = line through the corner.
    This is for a RWD car. I have been with a rally driver in a FWD and he was using the throttle, brake and hand brake. Unbelievabley good.
    If you ever get the chance to go to the Rally school up the gold coast hinterland ... do it... a freeken hoot.
  5. Sorry fellas, on reading it back I can see I've totally thrown you. My bad.

    I can rear wheel steer a bike when I'm in the zone. But I was referring to the turn right to tip left counter-steering method. I just called it Scandinavian flick cos i don't know what else it's called. Plus it would pique FLUX's interest, and that's always a good thing ;)
  6. you mean backing it in?
  7. Nope, this is different.
  8. Mmm....okay, your screwed now Cheffie-boy... Lol

    I need this technique you've enquirer about, explained, so understand it in context with a corner, please.

    And please elaborate on steering with rear wheel... Yes, I understand it in principal, but have never consciously put in into practice, or if I have, I haven't realized it mate.

  9. I'll explain the concept tomorrow when i see ya bro. It's simple and works a treat when it works but it fvcks my rhythm and my timing in some places. Sweepers don't need it for that I'm sure. Out of the chicane and into the right hander you should be able to see it come into play. Bear in mind it's been awhile since I've played up there. Actually there's not use for it up there. Passing inside crash could use it.

    Heh heh, opened a can of worms have I then?

    I only rear wheel steered under brakes on the SV cos of the compression. But it's used by racers on the way out under throttle as well. I've slid the SV coming out, but for drifting not steering.

    Under hard braking once the tail goes light you get your waggle going, the rest is timing. If your going right then you want to time it till your arse is pointing left then release and tip. You'll need to think about technique, don't just dump the brake. On some corners you can, but they're few and far between.

    Hmmm, now that I think of it, I'm sure I've seen Rossi flick MG during some of his block passes through there. Should look some up.

    Anyway where was I? Rear wheel steering on the way out is spinning up the rear on purpose to turn the bike sharper. watch some classic McCoy to see it in action. While the rest of us are shitting ourselves when we're running wide and getting off the gas, the proper technique is to give it a squirt and light her up. Can't say I'm into that kinda stuff. I'm busy shitting myself and I'm supposed to do what?
  10. You will see it a lot at places like Honda corner at PI. Turn 3 at QR. I think it's 8 at EC.
    If I am thinking what your are trying to ask. Oh so confused. LOL
    Where the bike is starting to turn left at the rear but the front wheel if facing a bit to the right. And yep usually under hard braking and then trail. Compression will do it or trail braking up to the apex.
    I think it's one of the best feeling in riding. But it takes a big handful of belief that it will grab when you commit to the line and drop it into the corner.
    For mine the main thing is you and your balance. The bike will naturally do it if you have a little weight forward and inside. Your eyes have to be level and you need to be focused on a point that you want to hit.
    You find the more focused you are the smaller the target becomes. The more in control you are.
    On your warm up lap look for small marks that will become your brake point. Your turn in and apex. Don't just look at the whole corner. Break it down.
  11. Chef, you are either full of it, or a god. If the latter, you don't need advice, you already know everything mate.
  12. Anyone that knows me will tell you both. But I'm not after rear wheel steering advice, I'm after counter-counter steering advice. I'm hoping he'll answer me on here or I'll have to call him.
  13. You've lost me Cheffie, unless you're referring to "backing it in", in which case, I'm a complete novice, and am unable to do it on demand nowadays, and if I do, it's more a case of sheer arse than class. Would never do it on the road unless I was deliberately being a tool. Well, that's my story to make up for the fact that it's just scary as it's potential high-side stuff.

    I reckon you've got the wrong guy though. Ask one of the motard heads around here. They're the sort of crew that like to throw it into a corner slideways (sic). At the track, and Honda at PI is good for it, it's a matter of braking so hard with the front that the rear wheel starts hopping on the bumps, and you're still braking hard when you counter-steer gently into the corner. The rear wheel just skips around to the outside of the corner and you can control how far it comes around by how hard you brake. Brake less to stop it coming around as it grips with the ground again. When you're happy with where it is, counter steer hard into the corner, and the bike is then already partway turned around the corner. Get it wrong and you're going flying (really wrong), or the bike will stand up and run wide (a little wrong).

    Don't listen to me too much though. As I said above, I ain't no back-in king, and if anyone asked me to do it, I'd more than likely crash in the attempt nowadays. I found it was something that just sort of happened as you pushed harder and harder. It was never something that I deliberately set out to do.
  14. Thanks FLUX I've been waiting for you to post.

    Firstly I'm not talking about backing it in or sliding it out. The last time I was riding with you I was noticing you push the bike to the right first to drop it quicker onto the left going into a left hander. I didn't give much more thought than that at the time cos I couldn't adapt to my style. But it looked good so it was fun to watch.

    Recently I've gotten the loan of a 675 for use, and I've noticed that the bike lends itself to this counter flick thing I'm trying desperately to explain but failing.

    I've been having a bit of a play with it but it's very hit and miss for me, I'll try to explain what Ratty told me.

    Let's focus on a medium to tight right with a little straight before it. I'm mainly praticing on the rights because i can see through them and judge entry speed better. Although using the method makes me feel I could easily run wide on exit....anyways...

    Whereas I'd normally set up and sit out to the left approaching the right hander, the idea is to sit on the right hand side line, but include at the last possible moment a flick to the left before tipping to the right. So I end up back to the road position I would normally be for tip in, but the quick turn to the left helps with the weight shift to the right before hand, and seems to drop the bike onto it's RHS a lot quicker. Meaning I'm now running some of them deeper than I have before. But only sometimes, it's still a bit hit and miss. Quick changes of direction have never really been a strong point for me.
  15. #16 Rattus Norvegicus, Jan 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Darlings things have to be placed into there deliciously correct context, what McCoy did on the 500 Two Stroke was simply outrageous, sugarplums those bikes were the domain of the insane and supremely talented.......

    Sweeties then there's the completely ridiculous

  16. Chef, hmmm, I suspect all you were witnessing there was really just aggressive counter-steering in action, and the 675's being a nimble bike, makes it stand out all the more. Thinking about it, it may also be complemented with my riding style, of how/when I shift weight to the inside of the bike, which will naturally make it drift to the outside of the corner, and as I'm "falling" off the side of the bike, I'm leaning on the inside bar (counter-steering) at the same time, so I'm really using my body weight to assist with the counter-steer. The counter-steer is therefore very aggressive, pushing the bike initially to the outside of the corner until it corrects and starts to turn.

    So, weight shift plus aggressive counter-steer (which is supplemented by the weight shift) may explain what you're seeing. I've had it said to me a number of times by people following at the end of a straight into some corner sequence that said person has trouble understanding how I turn a bike as quickly as I do (in comparison to the average casual road rider only - I ain't no savant and I'm not saying that I am here), in that I appear to be going straight on to the outside of the corner, then suddenly the bike flicks out and then in at the last moment, and then I'm hooking around the corner almost in contradiction to what the bike was doing a fraction of a second ago.

    It's not something that I've really thought about until you asked just now. Am not saying that it's right, but it is what I do at various times (not all the time). I just blend the weight-shift and the counter-steering into one rapid action. Whatever the bike does is just whatever it's doing. I'm not behind it, so I can't see it, but I'm guessing that's what you're referring to?
  17. Does that help at all Chef?
  18. Yeah that's it bro that's what I'm referring to. I've still got a very clear picture in my head from the last time we rode together, of a left hander you dived into. I've been replaying it in my head to see what I can glean from it. It's magic to watch.

    I'm going to play around with it some more and maybe dig out some race footage and have a look see.

    I can get a loan of a go-pro too if you're curious to see yourself in action. I'm curious to see your tip in point whether you're starting on the inside or the outside for some of these turns. I'm only guessing but I reckon you're somewhere in the middle to the inside before flicking out and diving in.

    If not then it's an illusion or my memory is shot. My money's on the second one. The thing I'm struggling with is my reference points for making the turn, and some feel slicker than others so I'm not completely sure how to get consistency. Other than practice blah blah.....just need to figure out what to practice!

    I do know one thing though, the little middy has opened up riding options that the old clunker could never do, so it's all become very interesting again :)
  19. Hehehe, didn't realise you were up early. Yes. At least you know what I'm talking about ;)