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Ethanol In Bikes! Why not???????

Discussion in 'Technical and Troubleshooting Torque' at netrider.net.au started by T2, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. Who's game to give it a go?

    How much damage could you do?

    :shock: If any?

    Where do you get the stuff?

    Can you drink it? :idea:

    What's it taste like mixed with Coke? :LOL:
  2. Who's game to give it a go?
    someone thats not me

    How much damage could you do?
    probly none, but the bike might grow some stubble, start to smell and hang out in dumpsters a bit

    Where do you get the stuff?
    local hardware store! the only place to find good cheap grog

    Can you drink it?
    what else would you do with it??

    What's it taste like mixed with Coke?
    kinda like buny, except painful...... good stuff :D
  3. Not me :!:

    How much damage can you afford :?:

    Cheap sleazy servo's :?:

    If your having second thoughts about puttin it in your bike why would you want to drink it :?: :shock:
  4. Here we go again (I thought we'd buried this crap last year!)
    Ethanol is a byproduct of various bioorganic processes.
    In this case (ie. Australia) I THINK it primarily comes from sugar cane.
    I stand to be corrected if wrong.
    It's advantage is that it is a renewable resource, so greenies love it. It's disadvantage is that, depending on the metallurgy, it can be highly corrosive to the metals in the combustion chambers of SOME vehicles. But harmless to others.
    Now there is a very wealthy bloke whose name I have forgotten (but I will research and report if somebody presses me :wink: ) who is very well connected to the upper echelons of the Liberal Party, and John Howard in particular. The story is that he had a quiet word to the powers, that if they were to specify a requirement that say 10% of fuel supplies had to be renewable, then he COULD (given given the opportunity to built an ethanol refining plant - which he did) be in the position to supply that resource. And co-incidentally reap an enormous profit.
    They were all set to go with this little plan last year until the media got hold of a few (probably exaggerated) stories about how ethanol was going to destroy everybodys motors. Government did a back-flip and banned ethanol, Mr Moneybags whinged bitterly about how he had invested on the basis that he been PROMISED he was going to be able to sell the stuff, and it all went away.
    My guess is that Johnny had a quiet word and said, "Just keep quiet for a few months and when it's all died down we'll do a back-flip and it'll all be sweet".
    That's just what I think.
    Unless you KNOW your motor is safe with the stuff, don't use it.
  5. The answer to the ethanol debate is to get rid of the sugarcane industry, it should have happened decades ago.
  6. E85 (85% ethanol, 15% petrol) fuel is actually pretty good stuff IF you are equipped to deal with it. It's 104 RON and pretty clean _BUT_ it can be corrosive to some metals, needs BIG injectors (runs about 30% richer) and upgraded fuel pumps and lines. One of the new Saabs gets a 30hp power boost over PULP on it and turbos in general LOVE the stuff because of it's detonation resistance.

    This 10% stuff basically has all the hassles and no real tangible gain once you look at the energy required to make it.
  7. Cut and paste from mobil.com.au:

    Mobil believes that, providing quality requirements are met and ethanol content in petrol is kept to a maximum 10%, ethanol can be suitable for use in most petrol engine applications.

    Ethanol has a lower energy content and is more volatile than normal petrol. It has a strong affinity for water hence fuel systems have to be kept quite dry when ethanol is present to prevent the ethanol from separating out from the fuel and potentially causing engine performance problems.
  8. Except you wont know. Little Johnnie has decreed that they can put in up to 5% Ethanol without telling the user.

    The main reason it's cheaper is the lack of excise (tax) on ethanol, similar to LPG.

    How long until someone comes up with a serious LPG option for bikes, then again why cant a few small bottles be fitted in place of the normal tank similar to the scuba tank set up on some cars except for the extra weight of the tanks compared with a standard tank making the bike more top heavy.

    S'pose they could stick the gas bottle into the "boot" of an Accross quite easily :p
  9. LPG doesn't run as efficiently in cars as regular unleaded - so you'd need the tanks to be able to store more than what bikes currently do. Probably a 25-30L tank would give you a decent range... but it would take up a fair bit of room.

    I was thinking about it the other day though - would make a bike very cheap to run, particularly a 250. ;)
  10. I guess it depends on how boring you a willing to want motorcycles to be.
  11. Which is why it is such a crappy solution to rising petrol prices. Government is considering taking a product that attracts excise, dilute it with another that doesn't attract excise, and then claim that they've reduced the cost to the consumer. Yes, they have - but at the cost of reduced revenue to Government (because you and I are now only paying excise on 90% of the fuel in our tanks - the other 10% is untaxed ethanol).

    But if Government is willing to forego some revenue, wouldn't it be simpler to just cut the rate of excise to 90% of the current rate? That would deliver the same savings to the consumer, the same revenue reduction to Government - in effect, there is no net difference EXCEPT that 10% of our fuel is no longer coupled to OPEC prices and some local ethanol producer gets to fill a market gap that only exists by virtue of Government policy.
  12. The positive benefits relating to greenhouse gas emissionsprimarily reduced carbon dioxide emissionsdepends upon how the ethanol is produced. Whilst ethanol produced from cellulosic (woody) feedstock results in substantially reduced full fuel cycle greenhouse gas emissions, ethanol produced from starchy crops as in Australia (wheat waste and sugar cane) does not produce significant full fuel cycle greenhouse gas savings over conventionally produced gasoline.(34) Differences in the full fuel cycle analyses arise because of differences in the production processes. Agriculture production of wheat and sugar involve high use of machinery and fertiliser, which in themselves are net emitters of greenhouse gases.
    Environmental and Other Offsets

    There are a number of offsets to the environmental benefits of using fuel ethanol and these include the following:

    an increase in emissions of adelahydes (formaldehyde and acrolein), and particularly acetaldehydes
    as an alcohol, ethanol contains the hydroxyl group giving it an affinity for water. If water content of either the fuel supply system, distribution system or vehicle storage tanks exceeds a threshold content of a couple of per cent water, then phase separation of the ethanol/water and petrol mix can occur leading to subsequent vehicle driveability problems and potential engine damage. Some ethanol blends are unsuitable for non-automotive usesuch as aviation, boats and a range of hand held devices and lawnmowers. The Boating Industry Association of NSW, in a national advertising campaign, warned boat owners that the use of ethanol blended petrol above 10 per cent in outboard motors could be a marine safety hazard(35)
    if an ethanol/petrol blend is spilt in a small watercourse or drain, the petrol may be able to be skimmed off the top but the ethanol will dissolve and be almost impossible to recover. Ethanol is, however, more easily biodegraded or diluted to non-toxic concentrations than is petrol.

    Ethanol has a lower energy content than petrolaround two thirds. As such, the use of ethanol blended fuels result in a loss of fuel economy. The higher the ethanol blend, the greater the loss in fuel consumption. A 10 per cent ethanol blend results in a loss of fuel consumption of around three per cent.
  13. Funny how 5% Ethanol can be slipped into your car engine without notice, while any Ethanol whatsoever is strictly forbidded in aircraft engines by the same government. (For those that are not familiar with aircraft engines, they are mechanically much simpler than any modern car engine). If it is unsafe in an aero engine, how came it's safe in a more complex car engine?

    The Brazilians have actually built an aero engine designed to run entirely on Ethanol, because Sugar and Coffee are all they have. This engine is a purely political excercise, and is not certifiable in any country except Brazil, but it IS designed from scratch to run on Ethanol BECAUSE IT'S NOT SAFE FOR PROLONGED USE IN EXISTING ENGINES..

    It seems clear, as has already been said, that this allowable 5% is just as much a political excercise as the Brazilian aero engine. If your car engine slowly deteriorates over a few years the government doesn't give a damn, it's not their money. But if my aircraft engine quits due to Ethanol damage and lands on a kindy, the Gummint sure as hell does care , because the fallout would damage them, not just you. Go sugar lobby GO.....
  14. Areoplanes are often expensive and owned by rich mogel typs that Jonny tends to associate with (much like his rich ethanol producing mate). The average AUstralian however, he actively dislikes so why should he care what happens to our cars. Unless we're making large donations to the Liberal party, we don't have a stake in the issue.
  15. At least we can pull off the road if we have a problem :)

    guessing it has to do with the moisture problem,
  16. Yeah that too, but I'm cynical by nature. :wink:
  17. Absolutely correct. It therefore follows that the Gummint feels that ethanol will have a negative effect on airyplanes that they find unacceptable. But you having to pull over and pay $250 for a tow home is perfectly acceptable.
  18. Can't remember the name of the guy but I believe you're thinking of the owner of the Manildra Group who control 90% of the country's ethanol production and also just happen to donate large sums of money to the liberal party each year. As to the idea of LPG for bikes - this has been discussed before and if you've ever seen what happens when a compressed gas cylinder ruptures I'm pretty sure you wouldn't want one bolted to your bike in the event of a crash :shock: .
  19. Dick Honan.

    Another tidbit is that Manildra is geared to produce almost all of its ethanol from wheat, not sugar cane, yet most of its public statements present ethanol production as something that'll help the struggling the Queensland sugar cane industry.

    (don't blame me; I voted for Kodos)
  20. Knowing the Governement adding 10% ethanol will probably just give them an excuse to add liqour tax onto the price of petrol as well.