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Equal pay for women.

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by ibast, Jun 11, 2010.

  1. The other day they was a rally for equal pay for women. I'm all for women having equal pay, for the same job and the same experience. The problem I have is this:


    The figure most often quoted by lobbyist is something like "the average woman's wage is 18% lower than men's".

    In my mind this is a false comparison. The fact is many women do not have career aspirations. They hold a job to get cash, before getting married.

    Other women are career minded up to the point they decide to have children, then they either never return to work or if they do it is years later and they thus have a significant hole in their experience.

    All of this drags the value of the average statistic down.

    The only way you can correct this is pay women more than men for the same position/experience.

    Thus trying to make woman's pay equal you must disadvantage men.
  2. The reason they're paid lower is because business is less willing to invest in a person who could at any stage say "I'm pregnant, give me 12 months off and guarantee my position when i return" or "I'm pregnant, heres my notice". Theres going to be retraining and additional investments associated.

    Even if a woman offered an assurance that they would do their best to not get pregnant, an employer would still be hessitant when a male with same training/experience is also being considered.

    my 2c

    Oh and iBast, dontcha just love statistics?!
    Its not so much the numbers, but the people who spin them for their own personal agenda.
  3. The results are skewed when they work out the difference in male vs female pay.
    2 big factors I see with this are: most CEOs, top level managers are male and woman taking time off for maternity leave etc lowers their pay.

    I haven't worked in a job yet where there was a difference just because of gender, normally because of experience.
  4. If women were being paid 18% less than men then why wouldnt all business that are smart employ only women and enjoy a increase in revenue of 18% per annum with no need for exansion or increased sales.

    its all bollocks

    Refer to

    this guy also has the credentials to be taken seriously having been the only male executive board member in the National organisation for Women ( NOW - USA)

    The stats used also take it across all industries ---

    many men do highly dangerous/skilled and labour intensive jobs which means they get paid more for this

    is it really hard to work in an office or a shop front ?
  5. With or without going postal?
  6. Women's average pay is lower because they work in lower paid sectors.

    Why are these sectors lower paid? Dunno.
  7. Often that experience deficit is due to women (mostly) needing to take a year or five off to get the kids to a point of independence where they can be without constant parental presence. Don't forget these kids also belong to the father who usually can't or doesn't want to be the primary carer of an infant.

    This situation has a huge amount to do with people having kids at a much greater age than they used to, IMHO.

    Motolegion is also right in that income also reflects the work choices (urk) that each gender tends to make.
  8. I've told more than one boss "there is no way I'm spawning another child in my uterus, I'd rather end myself"
  9. The 18% less thing is just a cleaver use of statistics. Male and female hourly rates are the same by law for every job. Take home pay is less due to reasons mentioned. If a female works half the hours of a male... that means... ‘women’ only get paid half as much as men!!!! Such outrage, better get Tracy Grimshaw on the phone.
  10. Except they are talking about salary positions, so hourly can be varied.
  11. Simple solution, offer males the exact same "maternity/paternity offerings".
  12. you obviously work in education or bridal sales

    ok so you fellas are all willing to take time off work to look after the kids are you? or subsidise child care so the ladies can return to work expeditiously after bearing your seed?

    i know plenty of women with career aspirations beyond finding a husband, and many who have decided not to have kids at all. One in particular is earning several thousand less for equal (if not more) work and responsibility.

    sex discrimination is not made up.

    I think what ibast is trying to say is that there is something called 'systemic' discrimination within societies. as a cultural whole, we assume all women should stay at home to look after the kids etc - and such cultural norms create the gender gap, for the most part. assumptions like "women are only working until they find a man" make up for the most of the rest!

    by the way... the fair work act allows for 24 months of unpaid parental leave between couples (e.g. 12 months each parent, but can also be used by just one parent)
  13. Also, many higher paid jobs do not have set salaries because renumeration is negotiated individually. In these cases the average salaries indicate the bargaining power of each group.
  14. out of curiosity ibast, how many females are in the company you work for (percentage)?

    But yes, the females that are spewing that rubbish are the ones that can't accept that any woman would ever want to get married and/or have children.

    es: I'm not about to deny sexual descrimination doesnt exist, but it certainly doesnt exist in the widespread form of the men's secret agenda to suppress women that they try to claim it does.
  15. The fact that parental leave is available to both parents doesn't mean it is taken equally. I'd suggest the ratio is far more than 4:1 (how's that for BS use of statistics, with absolutely no evidence to back it up?)

    Is the stat specifically that women are paid 18% less than men in the same job, or women overall average earning 18% less than men? That distinction should inform a discussion such as this...
  16. Which is likely influenced by the perceived value of women/men.

    Men may be more aggressive in their bargaining (within such a situation), but that is definitely speculation.

    EDIT: I strongly suspect that there is little that legislature can now do to further equalise pay; it strikes me as a social problem requiring sociological measures.

    And since that sort of thing require subtle actions, precision, understanding (of the situation, the peoples involved, etc.), and suchlike, I'm not sure I would want it to become a big hot topic for the government. Bureaucrats might be able to pull it off, but the monkeys... have a different skillset :?.
  17. exactly

    this report is a great resource, showing a break down of age groups and the pay gap within each.


    this one shows international comparisons
  18. Looking at that one for Australia, even for "Retail trade" there is a gap of 14% ('Full-time adult ordinary time earnings'). If it is indeed what I assume it is (sitting in shops selling stuff), it should be a fairly reliable indicator that there is indeed a gap. And given that the smallest pay gaps on each of the charts are around 5%+ (with only a couple of exceptions I have noticed), there is definitely a difference.
  19. No what I am saying is I don't believe systematic gender discrimination exists any longer. In fact I believe that we have gone to such lengths to not only eliminate it, or be seen to eliminate it, that gender descrimination has now swung the other way. For the same experience and job responsiblity women are now being paid more and are more likely to get a promotion. Maybe not to the director level, but certainly all the way too senior managment level.

    The average statistic quoted by lobbyist cannot demonstrate this.

    You will note that I did not write this. Rather I wrote that a portion act like this. And that whilst ever they do, the average statistic can never be equal without discrimating against men.


    There are very few women in my industry in general (Engineering). Those that are are usually admin assistant, accountant, procurmet officers etc.

    I wish there were more.
  20. I'm all for equal pay.

    Give me the same pay as Gail Kelly and I'll be on my way. :p