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engine oil

Discussion in 'Technical and Troubleshooting Torque' at netrider.net.au started by ashrose, Oct 22, 2012.

  1. hi guys,im new to riding and have just done a second oil change on my 250. i didnt notice this in my first oil change(didnt look) but in this one i found metal filings stuck to the sump bolt.
    i know i could be a handful of things but can anyone give me any ideas on things it could be...and possible results(damage)/remedies.
    the filings where metal.
    is an engine flush worth it how do you do one.

  2. Engine flush is unlikely to be of any benefit if it is indeed pieces of metal.

    Need more info though. Do the bits of metal stick to a magnet, what size are they, what shape are they, what colour are they, and roughly how many pieces are you talking about?
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  3. the bolt is magnetised and they stuck to that the same as if it were a magnet.
    the size would have been around 2mm maybe 3mm
    the shape reminded me of the filings left after useing a file/rasp on a piece of metal (there more like small shavings)
    and the color some were a dull gray..some a shiny "silver" (aluminium.."sort of") but mostly dull.
    could it have been left there by the previous owner
  4. Okay. If they had a curved shape like rasp or pencil shavings then that's usually indicative of localised "gouging" caused either by misaligned parts or large particles getting around in the oil (which can result from using the really cheap "supermarket oil").

    I'd be inclined to run the current oil for maybe 500kms then do another oil and filter change and see if there's still much sticking to the sump plug. Keep in mind that with a magnetic sump plug you'll always get a little bit of material sticking, but without knowing the bike, it's history or having a good look at the particles under a microscope there's a limit to what I can suggest as to whether what you're seeing is "normal" or not.
    • Like Like x 1
  5. thanks jd..i bought it second hand so dont know the history either
    and the oil im useing is castrol active 15w/50 i got from supa cheap auto
    its done 27k and its over due for a full service.
    ill do as youve mentioned and give her a run for a bit and change/check again.
    and if i had to compare the the bits of metal id say they where more like a flat bit of rice than say pencil shavings.

    thanks for your input jd ill post back here with what i find in a lil while
  6. Hmm, okay. Ovaloid (or flat rice) shaped particles are usually due to fatigue.

    That would seem unusual for an engine with only 27k on it, but again it all depends on past history. It's usually a sign of dry friction, either due to not enough oil or oil not getting to all the places it's supposed to (either due to blockages in the oil channels or even simply just using the wrong grade of oil).
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Does your bike also have an oil screen?
    If so it is likely worth taking that off next change and cleaning any metal and gunk off it too!

    edit: GV250 eh? Nah dont know that they have one, at least, i cant find a reference to one in a couple min search.
    • Like Like x 1
  8. If they're stuck to a magnetic sump plug, that means they're steel (or iron, but modern engines don't have a lot of castr iron in them).

    There are a few places where steel is likely to get shaved off in big enough chunks to be as you describe. The most likely, IMHO, would be the gearbox dogs (which are the bits which engage and disengage as you change gear). Inexpert gear changes can knock bits off them. Given that a 250 is likely to have been ridden by learners I'd find chewed dogs to be quite plausible, even at 27k. However, if it changes gear OK and doesn't jump out of gear under power or on the overrun, I wouldn't worry about it.

    Moving up the drivetrain, there are tongues on the edges of the clutch plates which could shed large flakes, as could the clutch body where the tongues engage. Outward symptoms would be difficulty in operating the clutch smoothly and possibly some clutch drag (bike tries to move forward even with the clutch pulled, difficulty finding neutral at a standstill).

    Another possibility is either the camshaft lobes or the cam followers (or both) where the two meet. The cause here would be something along the lines of por oil, infrequently changed or high revs on a cold engine. In my experience, though, once big chunks start coming off bits of the valve train, the top end of the engine is generally already sounding like a couple of skeletons rolling downhill in a dustbin.

    There's always the possibility of a ball race (most likely a gearbox bearing) starting to break up. Again, I'd expect some noise (whirring or ticking) if it was shedding crap into the oil.

    However, if the bike sounds and rides OK, I wouldn't be panicking just yet. As jd suggests, run it with the fresh oil for a while and see what comes out. A bit of metallic fluff attached to the magnet is generally OK. Big lumps are less so.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Are you shifting smoothly?
  10. patB..

    the second thing you mentioned "moving up drive train".. YEP when i start the bike with clutch in it pulls forward and its not easy to get into neutral and sometimes when i find neutral if i go to start her it jumps up to 2nd..also if i try to change from 1st to 2nd whithout the bike running and cold its almost imposible. theres also a knocking sound comeing from around the gearbox that when you pull the clutch in it lessens somewhat but doesnt seem to be there when in gear only neutral.
    MrMessy: yep it has a screen was gonna pull that next change..

    THANKS guys
  11. There's a oil screen under the cover that the drain plug is in...

    Isn't 27,000 end of life for a 06 Hyo anyway???
    • Like Like x 1
  12. stigger..lol, i was trying to avoid mentioning it was a hyo :) but nice catch.
    anyway i hope not..
  13. cam chain tensioners falling apart, there's a recall somewhere...
  14. Clutch cable mate.
    • Like Like x 1
  15. ok update guys.. done a 200km run today,came home went through the process of changing oil. no metal on sump bolt, tried to take out oil screan but couldnt get the screws undone (got the plate off but not the screan).
    also tightned the clutch cable as much as it would allow but it still pulls forward, matbe a new cable is in order
  16. What kind of oil did u use
    Did the clutch drag change when
    U changed oil?

    Is it correct sae
    Was the old oil really black ?
    • Like Like x 1
  17. phil01: the oil i used is castrol Active 15w/50. the manual says 10w/40 is the best but 15w/50 would do if nothing else is available.
    not sure what you mean by "drag change" but it tends to be tight to change up and cluncks down.
    and yes the oil is really black.
  18. if the manual says 10w 40 and you put 15 in which is close and "should" be ok but it is a thicker oil mate.
    also another problem that could be occurring is that really shitty oil is /has contaminated the clutch plates.
    - unsure of best fix there but another oil change with a lower sae rating, 10 w 40 should be easily found.
    an interesting thread you should read is the diesel oil thread - you search for it.

    if it was me i would probably give that a go to clean out the motor
  19. If you are still getting crap out again after using the liqui moly, id suggest you didnt let it run quite long enough or drain the oil enough. A bit of crud will transfer over to the new oil unless you strip the engine and clean it piece by piece, otherwise all you can do is go for 500km or so and change it again. Gradually flush the crud. Its expensive, but if its bad enough, justified.
  20. Its not the first number you have to worry about before the w. Thats the cold start viscosity. Every oil is too thick when cold. Its the number after the w thats important as thats the viscosity at operating temp.

    In this case you did put a higher viscosity oil as you went from 40->50 but this will not hurt your engine at all. Its beneficial to be exact as engines runs at a lot of different temperatures. For eg temp in you journal bearings is a lot more than temp in your cam lobes and at elevated temps the 50w oil will have a better film strength.

    Its one of those controversial things that will never be solved. I run a 5w-60 in my 929 Fireblade, New Z-SS commodore (changed the oil in it recently when it hit 1000km from factory xW-30 crap they put in) and the missus XR6 T.

    Here is a chart of cold cranking temp and oil grades. These are the border line pumping temps and you wouldent want to start you engine below these.

    0W - -35°C
    5W - -30°C
    10W - -25°C
    15W - -20°C
    20W - -15°C
    25W - -10°C

    So as you can see even a 25w oil is fine in most of Australia conditions. Personally I would put a min of xw-50 in any engine even if its rated for a xw-20. Don't be too concerned about the manufacturers specs. Most car dealership service centers don't use manufacturer oil specs anyways but mix fleet oil's.

    +1 do diesel engine oils in bikes/cars it work great to clean the engines. Don't buy engine flushes its 80->90% kerosene anyways so just use that if you wanna flush your engine. But your still better off using diesel oil and change it more frequently as it will give it a lot more time to clean the engine than 5-10min with a flush.

    Anyways hope you sort your ride out and have fun on it.