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emergency breaking

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' started by POPEYE, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. Just wondering what most peoples are able to stop their bike from 60kph to 0?

    I have been practicing braking amongst other things weekly & finally felt curious.

    Basicly i ride up to 60kph & brake as hard as i can to 0, downshifting back to first & be in the ready position check mirrors & than take off again.
    When i practice, i dont cover the break, so that i practice grabbing at the lever quickly but progressivly, simulating an aspect of emergency breaking.

    if i get a chance i will take a tape down & measure from a braking point to the stopping point.

    Apparenty from 60km to 0, if you stop within about 12m you have achieved a 1g decellaration.

    What got me curious is that i was reading a web site from the states that was talking about how some drivers got off the hook when they pulled out in front of a bike.

    The reason was because they apparently proved that the rider did not acheive a 'rank' ability to decelerate the bike & avoid a collission & i think they said that this should be 0.6g deceleration or more. I think they also said they factor in a 1.5 sec average reaction time. The point being is that just because some one pulled out in front of you the fact you got injured or died does not necessarily mean it was not your fault or you did not contribute, some smart arse lawyer & what you do can be the difference between a hefty pay out or bankruptcy.

    Btw, due to the article i read i also have changed my habit to covering & setting up the front brake & clutch anytime i am not on the gas, since i do alot of urban riding, i find this technique saves alot of reaction time & helps prevent emergency lock ups....does anyone else ride like this?

    Thanks for reading
  2. I also cover the front brake with one finger, I switch to two fingers in some situations where I feel there is more danger. When I practice emergency stops I cover the front brake, since that is how I ride. I did a quick, rough test for another thread recently and found 12-13m to be a good realistic distance to stop from 60kph on a good, dry surface.

    Can't comment on the accident thing.
  3. I do a lot of riding in town in Melbourne, and while I don't cover my brake as a rule, I do when I can anticipate a situation might occur where I have to do an emergency brake (which happens to be a lot of the time). Of course there are also the situations you don't anticipate.

    I don't see any point in covering the clutch. You need it for a nice smooth downshift, but in an emergency, who cares? It doesn't make you brake faster, and the worst that'll happen is that you stall (again in an emergency, who cares?), and even if you're in 5th, that you can save yourself from stalling if you only pull it in just before you come to a complete stop.

    Here's the other thread about stopping distance, which may be of interest.
  4. The main reason they don't like you to cover the brakes is your adrenalin. If your covering and someone does pull out, your gunna be pumped and squeeze too hard on the front brake and lock it up. Then you would have to release and get back on it again. Which in the big picture would take longer to stop than a non covered brake.
    Not saying either iether are right. It will depend on you and your nature and experience.
    Good on your for keeping up the practise. 12m is good but it can be done under ten. You need to keep practising no matter how good you are or think you are with emergency braking. It's something that has to be second nature. It has to be done at least 95% perfect in a bad situation. Practise and constant practice is the only way to achieve that. It will save your life.
  5. "emergency braking" from the word brake which is 'a device to inhibit motion' not break which means 'harm or injury to property or a person'.
  6. forget the clutch, just leave it.
    i can't remember why, somebody here may know, but if you don't pull in the clutch you actually pull up quicker.
    something to do with the rear being under load from the engine.
    when you practice, just the brakes, nothing else, no clutch, no down changing.
    decent tires will also shave of a couple of metres
  7. I too get a bit annoyed with the spleeling of brake as break.

    Or, at least, I did until a few months ago when I discovered that break was the correct spelling until the mid-19th century. Not sure why the change came about, but I suspect it had something to do with standardisation due to the railways, as happened with so much else from time to screw threads.
  8. I have heard both arguements for decades.
    A few of us got together in 07 and went through all this @ Mnt Cotten. A dozen trainers all on different bikes.
    If you are a noob just concentrate on the brakes and washing off as much speed as you can before impact.
    If you are experienced. Do it propperly. The clutch out does not stop you quicker. Unless you don't have the talent.
    Sorry digger, not having a go. Just trying to clear up a few urban myths.
    We do teach both ways untill you take adv lessons.
    Yes a noob will be better off just working the brakes.
    There are so many variables. The engine braking itself, slipper clutches, two strokes.
    The main reason for keeping the clutch in is to keep the engine running. I have seen way to many riders good and bad, drop it at the endof the stop leaving the clutch out. So then you are just a speed bump for the guy behind who could not pull it up.
  9. appreciate your reply/correction.
    it's just the way i was taught.
    i've always had the impression it pulled up quicker with clutch left out, but perhaps just percieved
  10. There really is poofteenths in it. It's more the bike being very heavy when dead at the end. And being able to get out of there at the end if needed.
    Leaving the clutch out will set up the bike better for a noob though. It will brake a little flatter. So yes for a novice you are right. But I have an inkling you are more than a novice.
    And that gets us into being able to touch the rear a little earlier than the front. A fraction of a second earlier. Will make the bike sit a little flatter during the stop. This gives more braking power to the rear.
    That's why no one can really answer the old 75/25 70/30 braking fractions.
    You try and use as much of both tyres and brake as you can. That will stop you almost as good as a brick wall lol
  11. not sure why i spelt it "breaking?", i know i certainly rather be braking!

    I was taught to keep the clutch in, ease out the front brake at the last 10-15kmh & get on the back brake. Then check rear view mirrors to see if the person behind me has failed to stop. Be in the ready position to take off & swerve to avoid the car in front & avoid being rear ended.

    BTW i think i learnt all of this in the P's or L's course, i cant remember?

    During the course of my practice, i noticed that if i kept my arms stiff, weight transferred to the front more directly & i could do some pretty cool stoppies...even ones where the back wheels bounces up and down as you regulate the front brake...pretty funny! Cool...but not effective because i read that if you are doing a stoppie then you are not achieving maximum decelleration.

    Now i noticed that if i bend / loosen my elbows, arch my back & hug the tank with the knees, allowing the weight transfer at the fuel tank, not arms....then the bike seems like it wants to stoppie less & i can apply more braking force.....

    Now this same website (here it is btw http://www.msgroup.org/) claims that you know when you are at maximum breaking potential when you 'hear' the front wheel screeching!

    Now i have never heard the front wheel screeching under heavy breaking, practice or not....& i have not yet or will not put myself in a position to have to brake that hard!

    But i have locked up & let go of the front several times without incident, but to brake to that point in practice feels crazy!
  12. meh, i'll always consider myself a novice because theres always so much room for improvement with riding.
    i had'nt really considered the effect of the rear squatting to flatten the bike.
    my bike is heavy in the front, big donk, but very light in the rear, over inflated and jacked up hard suspension. i just like it that way, it's funner, tips in and punches out pretty fast for a fat chick, set up like that.
    anyway, i really do pretty much completely 100% rely on the front brake to stop this bike.
    so far it's working out ok.
  13. So what bike do you ride MONKEYMAN?
  14. that was a HART advanced course that insisted i don't touch the clutch btw. and they were insistant haha. great trainers, but they always train in pairs and do the good cop/bad cop routine on you. when they insist on doing it their way you get Mr.Badass, and he is cold and humourless. fair enough though, it's a serious game.
    but they have a lot of different advanced levels in their curiculum. perhaps their super advanced level 1000 teaches you a few more tricks.
    no, they're good, always worth it and always a pleasure
  15. it's not really, you just build up to it, a bit faster each time, same technique.
    maybe not just yet, but soon enough you'll do it in practice at least. it's fun.
    i've practiced it at around 160 in a closed circuit.
    i'd try and do it faster if i could but that was as fast as i could make their bike go on the straightest stretch. lots of fun. i even compression locked it once by clicking it down to second and just letting the clutch pop out at about 140, just to find out what happens haha. these are 600 hornets at HART though. you can't crash the things no matter how hard you try. you could'nt push one over if it was standing still.
  16. Yeah I hear you. It's crazy. That time in 07 was all the leading instructors from over the state and interstate with the heads of QLD transport and police. We were trying to get a standardized training regime into place. So no matter where you got your license or training it was the same.
    Pretty much like the national rules system. Great in theory but impossible to put in place.
    When we teach we do it the head instructors way. Even if we don't agree. All the trainers in the same place teach the same thing. Just different schools teach different ways.
    Like I said both ways were tried and tested with a poofteenth in distance diff.
    From a teaching point of view, I have seen more fall with the clutch out.
    As most of us know, there are going to be more times when avoidance will be a whole lot less painful than trying to stop.
    Same as fig 8's. I have had to teach them with no clutch and letting them slip the clutch. Same end result.
    For mine get on the brakes and start washing off the speed. Then use your eyes to find a way to ride out of the mess. It will stop you getting fixated on what you least want to hit. Which is what most people naturally do unfortunately.
  17. Interesting. And I was guessing 10m was about as good as it gets from 60km/h. To get it under 10m is pretty crazy braking. That's awesome.

    As for stoppies, my understanding is if the rear wheel lifts off the ground a little = max. decelleration?
  18. Not to question the judgement of experienced trainers, but help me to understand, noting that I am fully aware of the risk of a fall close to the stopping point.

    By declutching, you are removing all chance of engine breaking, which I would prefer to have in my side.
    I brake and declutch do the last 10th or so... The idea of falling over one you come to a full stop in a shorter distance, seems to me to be more desirable than smacking the rear of the car of the car
  19. The front tyre will howl as you approach the limit of traction only screeching as it goes over imperfections in the road, you only need to modulate it if it stays locked.
  20. Hey Raven
    Um yes you have a point. But say you are in top when you hit the brakes. Most will do say 250kmp/h in top. How much engine braking will you have when your on the stoppers ??? And down to say 60. Or just cruising in top @60 and have to jump on them.
    Then throw in most sports bikes come with slipper clutches these days. Or leave an exhaust valve open to stop engine braking.
    Then there is the chance of surge. Or the rider screwing up and while pulling the front brake twist the throttle open as well. It happens a lot. Specially with newbs.
    Then yep you have stopped but your bike is stalled and you hear screaching tyres behind you.
    Or you find your not going to make the stop and see a gap. But your still in top and the bike is all doey because you are in too high a gear.
    For mine its a good way for a beginner to learn. To just concentrate on the brakes. But you should practise it enough that you can modulate the rear by the rear brake. Thats what it is there for.
    The only safety rating we have on bikes is us and our ability.
    And then don't forget when you don't pull in the clutch and leave the engine engaged it can pulse. Specially on a twin. Causing the rear to lose a bit of traction. Soon as that wheel locks up you will increase your braking distance by about 30%.
    And yep someone who cant use the rear well and locks it up will be better off not engaging the clutch.
    Emergency braking will rarely get you out of trouble. Bike don't stop that well and cars and other painful things pull out that fast.
    Looking for a way to ride out of the mess will help more than anything. And thats why I believe you have to keep the bike alive.