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Does the current licensing regime over emphasis rear brake?

Discussion in 'General Motorcycling Discussion' started by matlennon, May 28, 2011.

  1. {Split from the 102 cornering thread}

    *raises hand* Guilty of overuse of the rear brake when just starting out. My instructor taught me to use the rear brake as a low speed control device. I over used it to the point of using it as a primary brake in sub 40 speed environments. One quick panic stab in heavy rain sorted that out for me. Its amazing how fast you approach stationary traffic at 40km/h with a locked rear wheel. I could have easily learnt my lesson the hard way.

  2. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    Rear brake reliance is initially drummed into new riders in Queensland, if you did your training here it is not entirely your fault. This is always going to be the case when you have people completely new to riding doing fast-track style training to get their license (when you have competency based licenses learning the test is just human nature).
  3. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    Quick panic use of either brake can be just about equally dangerous.

    However in terms of effectiveness all you need do is try braking from 20-30 kph in a car park using first rear only and then front only, to see over-reliance on rear is not going to be very effective even when used judiciously.

    Not being from Qld I am not sure I understand this. Do they teach using the rear rather than the front for all braking? And if so why?
  4. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    What i was taught is the use of rear brake only can be effective in certain circumstances, they also show you that the rear brake is not effective as a primary braking tool. What they didnt teach me is that there is a period of learning where you instinctively panic brake and there is a high chance your natural instinct will be to stab the brake you are currently using. I like to think my days of panic braking are over but over the years i have given the fronts a decent panic stab and it takes a fair bit of force to lock them up (compared to the rear). In fact since buying a bike with ABS and a decent braking system ive realised i had plenty of reserve left in what i thought was threshold braking.
  5. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    Rear is taught first, first impressions do stick in the mind and as most of the training is low speed it is the main stopper you need to use in that training. Thus reinforcing the use of rear brake. The flow on effect is that when the completely new rider panics it is the one they tend to tromp on. Without making the training more road based (or time consuming/expensive for those who are competent) I don't know how you fix this flaw in the training.
  6. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    Grey, it's a similar story in Vic. On range training means that front brake is discouraged to avoid multiple falls.
  7. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    Do you think introducing more "checkpoints" such as compulsory training weekends every 6 months during the first two years of riding would help? I think even someone competent enough would be able to take something away from it all. I also think that some training on a track of sorts would go along way. A controlled way of understanding the consequences of having the additional power, and understanding the consequences of not being correctly set up entering a corner, running wide on the race track would be far less dangerous than running wide into your first set of corners. It was scary to think that my license test to get my opens was the same as my p's test. There was nothing in the testing to differentiate from the fact i was about to be allowed to ride something with upto 4x the power.
  8. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    Considering the numbers of riders and testers we have I think the system we have is not a bad compromise between easy enough to attract new riders and hard enough to ensure a semi-capable beginner. Much better than with car licenses and that has to be the benchmark. Unless all road licensing is stricter we shouldn't be discouraging people from taking up 2 wheels by driving up the cost of licensing.
  9. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    not strictly true. when i did mine the [rear brake] instruction was: rear was best suited to low speed as it acts "like a rope tied to the back, pulling out any wobbles"
    but, that could just be the teacher i had (wayne @ ridesmart)
  10. I'm surprised if I'm reading this correctly, as some seem to be writing as if it's rear only braking.
    That's not what I've seen. Instructors do however encourage rear first braking; that is rear brakes to settle the backside, then front brakes to push the bike down & stop. But as the first instructor that I had said, by the time done the motion to let go of the accelerator & apply the front brake (you should be able to do that in one motion), you're already going to have the back brake applied.
  11. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    This wasn't taught to me three years ago when I did my Ls. They showed the difference between back brake only, front brake only and both. It was drummed into me at least to use both except at low speeds.

    The braking training at HART has always been use both to encourage muscle memory so in the event of an emergency you instinctively use both to minimise stopping distance.

    I've done my Ls, Ps, a couple of practice sessions, Intermediate and advanced courses at HART and the message was the same every time.
  12. I use the rear brake for U turns and super slow traffic chugging. Do i win ?
  13. Re: Noob 102: Cornering basics - improving the basic technique

    Thats exactly what i was taught (at HART). We were shown the different effects of rear only, front only and rear/front, and asked to complete a controlled emergency stop. I dont believe we did anything that encouraged muscle memory however.

    I carried that rear braking in low speed maneuvering onto the street and when a car in front braked suddenly i panicked and stabbed the applied brake (rear). In the dry it probably would have stopped me on the spot, however in the wet i didnt even slow down. Speaking to a few riders, some new some experienced, they have all experienced something similar in their early days of riding. Im certain not everyone does it. Maybe its just one of those lessons you learn the hard way as a rider. Or maybe there isn't enough adequate training in emergency braking to build the instinct required when doing an emergency brake?

    I reckon they should have some bikes equipped with those "training" wheel arrangements that stop you from dropping the bike if you lose it. Throw some foam pop ups on them and make them do an emergency stop to understand what its like to panic.
  14. In Qride we teach you to use the rear brake as a stability device. Not a brake. Well except for the first day or two when you are on the training range. Where people tend to grab the front and somehow low speed high side themselves. Overbalance and overboard. Most common accident there is.
    In fact most instructors I know show you how useless it is as a brake alone, and then how important it is in the initial part of braking. Like rear brake front brake both brakes.
    I guess that's a bad part of trying to teach someone a lifetimes worth of knowledge in 6 12 or even 18 hours.
    The rear brake on my Viffer does my head in as it can ONLY be used as a brake. And I am having to change my riding style when I ride it.
  15. Yeap at HART in Vic they do promote both front and rear for an emergency stop. Interestingly, while they do stress a "set up and squeeze" for the front, at my learner course the instructor made no mention on how you should modulate rear brake use. I asked him at the end and he said you should slowly apply it like the front.

    HOWEVER I did another course recently with Stay Upright and the instructor there said to only use front brake for E-braking.

    So really I guess it depends who you do your license with in the end? Seems to vary between companies AND instructors...

    Personally, Saturday morning sessions with Doug and Dave and helped me enormously, my E-brake 'memory' has pretty much settled in now with front brake only. As others have said, I only use it for U-turns and slow riding. I used to use it to brake while I rev-matched down the gears coming up to a stop but during the past few weeks I've started blipping while using the front brake aswell, instead of the rear.
  16. I don't see any way around that without screwing things up even worse (or costing a fortune), so a few people bin it from rear lock-up.
  17. After a minor off from lock up by using rear break, I'm no longer putting my right foot near it. It's so easy to skid with the Ninja 250's rear break.:-s

    I use the palm to blip throttle while pulling the front break. Dexterity is the key. :)
  18. i was taught (less then a week ago) to apply the rear brake as much as possible without locking up (obviously get a feel for the bike and brakes first) and to set up (shift weight to front) and squeeze.

    this was hammered into me when the instructor did a stop from 60k using back only (nearly hit the wall and used both brakes for the last few metres) front only (stopped in maybe 15m) and both (stopped in around 6m)

    but he was always telling me to feel and listen to the bike. to get used to it so my attention was always eyes up-front on the road where i wanted to travel. (i no-longer look down when braking, and or look at the tacho when taking off for the right revs - put a deposit on a 1999 vtr250 yesterday so no tacho anyway)

    great instructor really helped and was focused on making us safe riders rather then passing a test. was very technique focused and would always show us the corect way to ride. and be patient always giving us advice in how to improve and where our body/bike/focus should be. especially coming into a corner, through it and braking. helped me alot and i improved very significantly thanks to him (completely different from when i started, never thought i could learn so quick).

    did the course through armstrongs, very recomended. helped me organize/streamline vic roads medicals etc.... very good people
  19. There is a case for only using the front when you really need to stop. When I'm really hard on the front, on the 14, I do get some compression lock going into 2nd and particularly into 1st. That's no rear brake at all and I'm still having the back step out, because there's so much weight transfer to the front.
  20. Where abouts do you teach QRide? I may have had you as my instructor.