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Deposit paid on verbal conditions of sale with dealer...

Discussion in 'Businesses and Service Providers' at netrider.net.au started by toast, Dec 4, 2009.

  1. Hey peeps.

    I have been riding for just over two years now and its time to upgrade. I have taken the 2008 CBR600RR and 1000RR out for test rides, previously. Then, on Wednesday 2nd December, I test rode the Daytona 675 (travelled to another city to do so). The next day, Thursday 3rd, I test rode a second hand 2008 CBR600RR at the local Honda dealer. After the test ride I talked with the Honda sales person (who I have delt with just about every time I have visited the place over the past year) and discussed the two bikes and pros and cons.

    The little 2008 Honda I had just ridden was listed at $13,490, with 1333 KMs on the clock and in immaculate condition (gearbox was still being run in). It was on sale under consignment for a client that had an injury a while ago and could no longer ride. Hence the low KMs.

    The bike had less that one month rego left and was registered in another state. Which means a large transfer and rego hit of $914 (for one year. More on this later) on top of whatever price was negotiated. It had been on sale for almost a month and a half. There was another 600RR 08 on the lot for a little less and more KMs (but not the colour I wanted). So, things weren't moving very fast.

    The discussion was pretty casual and I had not indicated any special interest in the bike. I took it for a ride and the conversation kinda unfolded around thoughts and speculation. I mentioned that I was looking to buy a heap of Dainese gear if I was to buy a bike (two jackets, two pants, maybe another pant, some gloves for winter), Ventura bag, new visor, etc. A few grand for the dealer.

    So, I said at some point I said that I would only pay $12,000 for the bike, and that I couldn't be moved on it. The sales person appeared surprised at my offer and said that the owner would most certainly knock it back as it was so low (almost $1500 less than asking). I said no worries, if they aren't interestd then I will just move on and go private. No big deal. There are plenty of nice bikes for the same or less money with only a few thousand more KMs on the clock.

    I said that the fact that the bike has only 1300 KMs on it was not important to me. Naturally he said he would have to ask the seller. No worries. By this stage it was time to close shop. He would talk to the seller tomorrow.

    The next day (today, Friday 4th December) the sales rep called early morning and said that he hadn't called the seller yet and wanted to know if (again) I was negotiable on the price. I said no, again, pointing out that the bike hadn't sold and was out of rego in less than a month, and that I had lots of gear to spend with him and that the asking price was way too much. It was two years old and it didn't matter to me that it had low KMs. He said that the seller would likely find my offer offensive and said what if I can talk them down would I move up to $12,500?. I said no, can't move.

    Even though it seems like I am being obnoxious, the tone of our discussions is pretty casual and I'm just being straight forward without any aggression or attitude. He also was very reasonable in the way he said things.

    Soon after that discussion, I check what it would take to make the change into our state registration. That's when the high cost became evident and I rang the sales person back and said, btw, the rego isn't going to be $400 odd as he mentioned, it's going to be $900 odd (with the transfer fees, stamp duty, etc). I said with that in mind I am definitely not able to move up on my offer. I pointed out that if the bike had eight months on it, the transfer would likely give six months credit and I might have considered moving.

    He rings back and says $12,250, or no deal. I said dude, the transfer and rego is too much. At that point he reiterated that he could give me a good deal to make up for that, and more. I said, okay, that's a reasonable offer - lets see what the figures come out to in the total so I can be sure I can fit what I need into the budget.

    I had given him a list of three jackets I wanted, and three pants, and said that I fit a size 50 Newsan Pelle jacket. From that list I would choose four or five items to buy (plus the non-Dainese gear). He came back with prices on three items, citing unavailability of three of the others. Which is fair enough, I thought.

    However, while I had been waiting for him to get back with the prices, I had talked to the guys at Peter Stevens. Who, it turns out, have a close relationship with the distributor of Dainese (the brother of the guy that owns PS owns the distributor). I figured that PS probably sell more Dainese than everyone else put together (maybe not quite but they likely sell a lot), and so know more about what is what. So I talked to someone there and they are pretty helpfull and provide some great info about what's available.

    So, when my sales guy rings me back with the pricing and availability, I am surprised that one of the items he gave me a good price on is, according to PS, no longer available in size 50 (it is in sizes either side of that). And, that another item he says is not available is available in the new year according to PS. I just accepted that people make mistakes and our conversation continued. He gave me good discounts on all available items, including the non-Dainese stuff. But, some of the gear won't be ready until Jan/Feb next year. Which is fair enough, too.

    However, I needed more items and the unavailability of these threw a spanner into the works. We couldn't get a true total and I couldn't finalise my budget adjustments. Yet, the sales guy pressed me, asking if that was a good deal. I said sure is, thanks, but that we need to find alternatives for the unavailable items before I can agree to a complete sale. He said okay, but the gear aside, do you want to buy the bike (basically saying that we can work out more of the 'good deals' later). I said okay, but I can't finalise the deal until I have all the numbers. Actually, he said I should put a deposit down ($500) now to secure the bike and put a sold sticker on it so that it con no longer be sold. Considering the bike hadn't sold for a month and a half it really wasn't an issue for me. But, it still made sense. So I agreed to a deposit and gave him my credit card number (I asked him how this works and he said they put 'customer to sign' against the transaction and I sign it later). But, for now it secures the bike. Okay, I said.

    That was this afternoon, about an hour and a half before closing time. Then, as I am getting ready to go out, I am thinking. I wondered, what is the chances of him stating, later down the track after I have put in my order and payment down for agreed items (including the sale of the bike), that the great stuff he could get a discount on is no longer available and there are these options for a bit more? At which point, I'm unable to do anything about it. I know, that's pretty negative thinking.

    So, anyway, I have arranged to go in to see him tomorrow (Saturday morning, 5th December 2009) to sort out what next. Yet, I want to make it clear that the sale won't go ahead unless the items I want can be provided and certain conditions can be met (the bike sale is conditional on agreement of final numbers, based on price and availability). And, that my deposit will be refunded in full if this cannot be done.

    How do I do this without coming across as being offensive. How do I get a deal that I can trust will be honoured? How do I protect myself without seeming like a totally paranoid MOFO? Maybe I shouldn't care and just be bullish about getting the security and assurances I need, in writing. He doesn't have to give me discounts for everything, which is what he is doing. My suspicions might be unfounded and he got a different story about the availability of gear from the distributor than what PS knows about.

    Can anyone give any advice? Yeah, sorry about the essay.
  2. You just need proof that what you stated has been agreed. Before you go in, jot up an agreement stating your name, what was agreed, the bike shops name & address, then the sales person's name & position.
    It doesnt have to be long or detailed but make sure the agreement states along the lines of i work at this shop and i am able to give this promise on behalf of the company.

    you could also state that you will get cash back & not store credit which may expire, if they are not able to get the items which you want & state what the items are.

    Otherwise you can ask for a gift voucher for the remaining amount.

    If they say dont be silly you can trust us, tell them your wife asked you to do it for tax reasons or something.

    If you go in on sat and they deny the agreement made over the phone exists, then ask to speak to the manager. If they dont resolve the issue tell them you want your deposit back in full.
  3. Thanks, es. Will do.
  4. BTW, here is the list of Dainese gear I wanted:


    RRP: Unavailable.

    RRP: Unavailable.

    NEW DELMAR Pelle (in ROSSO/BIANCO - Red/White)
    RRP: $1200, discounted to me for $1000.


    DELTA PRO Pelle (in NERO/ROSSO - Black/Red)
    RRP: No price, however available 2010.

    PELLE PONY (in NERO - Black only)
    RRP: $600, discounted to me for $510.

    GATOR GORE-TEX (in NERO - Black only)
    RRP: Unavailable.

    BACK SPACE G2 (back protector to fit all jackets)
    RRP: $150, discounted to me for $126.

    How do the prices seem?
  5. I think you're right to be concerned that this may become a hassle and I'd second es's advice. They'll roll their eyes but you can take it. :)
  6. How is a 2008 bike two years old??

    I think he'll be glad to get rid of you; someone will buy the bike, and you can take your obssessive compulsive disorder somewhere else; I mean, seriously, you're spending 12 grand, not buying the Crown Casino......
  7. Wrong side of the bed?

    ...I do have some sympathy for you point of view though. :)
  8. It's Saturday, so hopefully Toast will have gotten a favorable result from today's dealings.

    But, it should be said that no verbal agreement is worth the paper that it's written on.

    I suppose that if it goes pear shaped and they don't refund his deposit (assuming that he also hasn't signed any contract) the credit card issuer may be able to reverse the transaction.

    Here in Victoria we have a cooling off period. I'm not sure if other states have this, and whether or not it applies to bikes sold on consignment. That's also something to consider.
  9. Hah, yeah it might seem like that. But, really, the best way to 'get rid' of customers is to always take care of the details for them. The bike was manufactured in December 2007.

    I got a reply email today from an interstate dealer. In the email he addressed each Dainese item with availability and cost. Where stuff was no longer available he put down what was replacing it. Pretty simple, but clear and quick. And, I wasn't buying a bike off him either... no face to face, just a phone call and email. He said they don't sell much Dainese yet does this simple task very nicely.

    By contrast, the guy I am dealing with said his crowd often sell Dainese. He had a notepad scratching out the things I wanted (didn't care for the email listing with links, etc) and all his responses were verbal. So, today I asked for a formal quote, listing RRP and discounted prices, availability etc. In fact, I shouldn't HAVE to ask for it and I've dealt with companies who have done everything without having to be asked. They make it easy and you are done and gone quick. It's called professionalism.

    Australia is the country of "she'll be right"s and while people get pissed off at it most just accept it. Maybe I should go live in Germany. At least people there pay attention to detail without having to get obsessed about it. This forum has countless posts about situations where the people 'paying the money' have gotten burned by incompetence or outright negligence "yeah, mate, sorry about that - she'll be right". Or worse.

    Sure, it's only 12K, plus the couple of grand for the gear and almost a grand for the rego transfer. But, it's MY money. If money wasn't an issue I would just go into a dealer I like, buy RRP and be done with it. Or I would phone around the east coast and get a bike sent to me.

    When it comes to the gear, I don't want to pay $1000 for a jacket I don't actually like. Which is what will happen if I don't ask them to pay attention to detail and find out exactly what IS and IS NOT available and for what prices and what the alternatives are.

    It looks like I will buy the bike now and end up going down to Melbourne in Jan/Feb to get all the gear through Peter Stevens (for a discounted price).
  10. Yeah, I got there pretty early and asked for a quote of the items.

    In response to hornet's comments, I think that when it comes to money and legal documents/agreements, you have to be very specific. Even the language needs to be correct. Today I was signing a Tax Invoice. It had the deposit amount on it and the cost of the bike, etc. When I asked the accounts person what it was, they told me it was just a tax invoice for the bike. But, it actually was the contract of sale. When I asked her if it was the Contract of Sale that I needed to give to my lender, she looked puzzled and couldn't answer my question.

    How can you mean what you say if you cannot say what you mean? "She'll be right" just doesn't cover it.