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N/A | National Dealing with police when pulled over

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by grue, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. Seeing as we don't have a protected right to silence or anything like that to fall back on, what's the procedure here when The Esteemed Member Of The Law Enforcement Community asks if you know how fast you were going and such?

    Raise an eyebrow and don't answer?

    Say "No" and risk being told "oh you were doing 69 in a 60" "Was not" "I thought you said you didn't know…" or something.

    Say "yes" and then deal with the "well, how fast were you going?" that will likely follow.

    So, how about compiling a good list of suggestions for "Guidelines for dealing with police that aren't likely to get you arrested, beaten, tased or shot"?
  2. #2 robsalvv, Mar 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
  3. #3 grue, Mar 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2015
    Yeah, that's the problem. I'm well versed in what I can and can't do based on US legal protections, but over here, with no bill of rights, I'm sort of at a loss. Fortunately my only experiences with the traffic stasi have been of the "papers please" random check variety, but it's only a matter of time before I get someone who wants a little more of my time and starts asking questions where he intends to use the answers against me.
  4. The only advice i've been given that sounds reasonable is that when a cop asks you if you have any reason for speeding you simply say "I wasn't speeding".

    If they have you on radar you'll get a ticket anyway but if they just pulled you up because you looked like you were going too fast then admitting it will make it easy for them. Also, if you ever decide that you have grounds to fight a ticket then you better not have admitted that you were speeding.

    I haven't been pulled over for anything but an rbt for many years so I don't know whether this actually works.
  5. The same principle applies here, everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.

    That doesn't always mean the best thing to say is nothing though, not in ALL situations. And the correct response to a direct or leading question is..."no comment" if that's how you want to play it.

    When dealing with LEOS you're expected to give your correct name and address but you're not obliged to say anything else. Remember though that this can work against you, so use your noggin ;)

    I don't recommend lying, but then I don't recommend telling the truth either.

    If I'm in a 60 zone I'm always doing 60, unless they can provide evidence to the contrary. Even then I'll believe I was doing 60 unless their evidence stands up in a court of law. Up until that time it's an allegation. With me?

    However, if on the off chance I was doing 120 in a 60 for arguments sake, and the officer told me that's what I was doing, then I would be obliged to answer "no comment" to anything they had to ask me about it. I'm already going to court, so I might as well wait to see the evidence they hold against me before I decide to give my side of the story.

    Two things decide guilt
    1) a court of law
    2) you by your admission

    A police officer can only act on what he believes to be evidence. Which is also not considered evidence until it is proven in a court of law.

    e.g. His radar says 120 (evidence), but the radar is faulty (fail)

    [edit] actually here's a better example which happened recently....
    Rider gets pinged by a dodgy cop (pig). Rider gets the run around by his Barrister (well known wanker)
    Rider decides to accept the charge on the chin when he really wanted to fight it because he knew it was bullshit, and the copper damn well knew it was bullshit too.
    However without his Barrister the rider decides to plead guilty
    Judge looks at the so called 'evidence' and asks the copper how he caught the rider speeding
    Copper looks through his notes and says it was with a laser (bullshit)
    Judge asks the copper how come the detected speed is exactly the same as the 'alleged' speed on the notice (clearly hasn't followed procedure)
    Copper shrugs his shoulders and says "I don't know"

    His 'evidence' goes uncontested in a court of law
    Rider is now walking for six months
    The Barrister wasn't used for the case because he's a wanker.

    Make sense? So much FAIL in there it's not funny.

    This isn't America so you'll be fine, you're more likely to be beaten up outside a nightclub.

    Be polite* and remember that their questions are designed to lead you into an admission of guilt. If you are polite and they're just going about their job, they'll usually answer questions about their questions. If that gives you the thinking space to prepare your answers, use it.

    *now the kicker
    If you want to play funny buggers with them and stand your ground, best you get yourself up to speed with the road rules, ADR's and your rights. Best you know the ground you intend to stand on.
    Don't start anything you're not prepared to finish. Plenty of people have gone toe to toe with pigs and come out on top. Pigs are bullies with badges, they are not used to not getting their own way. It is in your best interests to carry a camera with you and film any discussions, intimidation or threats that you may be a party to in your dealings with them.

    Not ever cop knows what they're talking about
    Not every cop knows the law they're supposed to be serving
    Not every cop is a pig so get over it
    Your Barrister is not your friend. Do not confide in them. They do not serve you, they serve the courts.

    Lastly, if you are engaged in the legal system think of it as a game, don't take it personally. i.e. remove your emotions.

    Go back to the story I was talking about above, all of that FAIL in there is because of emotions. The Judge saw through it but because of mandatory sentencing his hands were tied.

    One more thing. The cops like to play this little game 'get em in court'. They'll sometimes charge you knowing full well that their case is weak and could collapse in court.
    You've made no admission of guilt and their evidence is flimsy at best.
    You have to go through the process of hiring a Barrister to defend yourself. Costs can be as high as $1800 to defend a fine of $300 and a mark on your driving record.
    The court day comes and your Barrister goes to the Prosecutor and says they have a flimsy case against you.
    The Prosecutor agrees to drop the charges if you DON'T pursue costs which is your right to do if you win your case.
    The Barrister comes back with the 'Deal of the fvcking Century' to get you off the charge/s
    Most people bail out here because going to court is too nerve racking to continue.
    The Prosecutor gets paid
    The Barrister gets paid
    The Judge gets paid
    Everybody's happy right? The legal system at work for you.

    As i said, if you're going to play the game with these guys, you need to be prepared to play it till the end.
    If you win your court case, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be awarded costs. So you could still end up out of pocket.

    But if more people dragged the coppers into court to test their evidence every time they made up frivolous charges, and were awarded costs against them, the frequency of their bullshit would taper off.
    Because somebody would have some explaining to do.
  6. The only reason why the nice member of the constabulary didn't throw the book at me when he KNEW I'd been doing some serious speed was because he said "You're obviously not a young smark-aleck".

    SO there's the clue; don't get pulled over till you're old, and when you do, be polite and agreeable :p

    Of course, if you're a member of the Netrider "The Police are all corrupt and they're out to spoil our fun" Club, then this advice will probably not help any :LOL:
  7. he has a valid point!
    And needless to say, the "polite and agreeable" and being genuine about it has contributed to me not having a TIN from the plod for nearly 15 years.....

    That's why I prefer a cop to cameras, they can (and do often) use thier discrecion at times...
    Show disapproval or attitude and they always have the upper hand...
  8. ^ I'm with the geriatrics on this.:D

    If you've been caught speeding and KNOW YOU ACTUALLY WERE speeding, just nod, smile and agree with the nice policeman.
    Arguing about it just makes you a liar. Or worse, oblivious to your own speed.

    I've got away with a fair bit of stupid stuff over the last 25 years by leaving my attitude in my pocket.
  9. I got out of one last week, I really don't know how. It was a red light.

    There was a left green turn arrow but the car in front was going straight and traffic wasn't moving. I filtered past but as I started to filter the light started changing. I knew it was going to be line ball. But I didn't want to get stuck in the middle wanting to go left with someone going straight. I should have found a place to fit in traffic but I filtered quickly and crossed. Wasn't sure if I made it or not. But my pillion thought I just made it.

    The cops were undercover GD. Neither of them saw the green turn arrow and told me I went straight through a red that was never green. I don't think they made this up, they just never actually saw the green arrow. And as I crossed they looked up to see a red light. From their perspective this is a pretty bad thing to do. And I'll admit it wasn't my finest point in riding.

    I got off with a warning based on having a good record. The copper was a rider so that must have helped. And I didn't try to argue that I made it, I stated I wasn't sure.

    So if you get done, get done by GD cops that are also riders, they are more lenient, and keep a good record.

    Also the fact that I filtered was never even considered for a ticket, I just got told not to do it so fast, especially with a pillion.

  10. I find this somewhat informative
  11. NEVER be a ********, wont do you any favours at all.
  12. Best way, is not get stopped in the first place,
  13. What they ask you if your speeding??
    Last time I got done (which was at the bowser of a servo), the cop just run up to me and and said "check this out
    Gadget flashing 95kph.. this was in a 50 zone!!.

    Lucky he had a sense of humour, when I said, bit of a bugger I had to stop for fuel!
    (I think this went over his head abit)
    to add..
    Well, your tank fill is going to be expensive one!!
    and I reply..Yes, looks like just regular then!..
    So after abit of "respectful" smart assing, we got talking about my bike, which then lead to a reduced crime of 20 and under...
    (Ok I did plead all kinds of bullshit in the mix, i admit)

    Anyway...You beauty, I could still ride home and keep my license!!
  14. NOTHING will save you from a cop who WANTS to fill his quota.

    Full stop.

    Their job is not to win in court. Their job is to BOOK you.

    ...and they will, if they want to.

    Sucking up / Licking down won't help.

    *BE courteous/civil. No more.
    *Note badge number/name/time/patrol vehicle number

    If stopped about your speed, admit NOTHING!
    Here's the line:
    "I believe I was doing <insert speed limit minus 5 kph here>."
    Don't get sucked in: They are NOT YOUR F*'ing FRIEND!
  15. (i) BE POLITE. The "attitude test" can make a huge difference.
    (ii) Supply name address and licence. These are legal obligations.
    (iii) Whilst BEING POLITE, don't supply any other info.
    Answers such as "if you say so" or "no comment", said in a POLITE REASONABLE tone, are perfectly acceptable.
  16. On a recent expedition, there were quite a few of us that got pinged.

    Silence didn't work, that fellow still got a TIN, admitting to it, but claiming it wasn't so bad didn't work, asking the cops if they were sure of the road rules (me) didn't work, still got a TIN. Where's the foot in the mouth emoticon?

    In my other dealings with Victoria finest, I've always been polite & courteous, & usually walked away with less TIN's than first threatened with...

    Whether that's normal police tactics or not, I can't say.
  17. Be scrupulously polite.
    Admit nothing.

    It's really not that hard, particularly when you know you really were playing silly buggers.
  18. In my personal experience,
    - do not tell an obvious lie
    - do not put a number to it.
    - try not to say "I have no idea" (suggests you weren't paying attention).
    - do not refuse to answer (uncooperative)
    - do not give 'attitude' however much you may feel it.

    I have found that "I thought I was at the limit", or " I wasn't aware I was over the limit" is neither an admission of guilt nor a provable lie. Use 'the limit' instead of a figure if possible. (Obviously if you are massively over, and everyone knows it, this is not going to help, in which case you may have to fall back on "I don't know".).

    Polite and contrite goes a LONG way, but don't relax too much if things get 'chatty', and end up admitting something.

    FWIW I've haven't had an unpleasant confrontation with road plod in many years, but then, I've managed to avoid the more aggressive targeted operations.
  19. When I got done in my cage, he asked "Is there a reason you were speeding"? I just played dumb and said I wasn't watching my speed and it felt like I was doing limit (was a 60 zone straight after a 100). At the time I just acted remorseful and polite which got my charge downgraded 17km/h over but classed as 0-15km/h over. Maybe that is normal practice IDK. Also, maybe pleading ignorant is not the best thing to do, I'm not sure, but at the time I though it was the best way to not admit my speed without seeming like a smartarse.
  20. Re: Speed Attitudes Slow to Change

    Kind of related, below is an excerpt from an article in the December 2010 Police life magazine which highlights the training received to detect tell tale behaviors in conversation.

    "Operation Crime and Traffic
    Connecting on Highways (CATCH)
    is about conversational and
    observational awareness.

    The concept is modelled on the
    highly successful Royal Canadian
    Mounted Police’s (RCMP) Operation
    Pipeline used for the past 15 years.
    Southern Metro Region’s
    Superintendent Harry Hayes
    observed the concept in Canada
    in 2005.

    Supt Hayes recognised the
    immediate benefits the method
    could bring to investigations
    and sought to introduce it to
    Victoria Police.

    RCMP trained Victoria Police
    members in Southern Metro
    Region in June last year before the
    training was rolled out to police
    across the state this year.

    Supt Hayes said police were
    being trained to increase their
    awareness to gather meaningful
    intelligence from subtle
    behavioural indicators.

    “Culturally, we are very laid back
    and very accepting of what we’re
    told. We’re teaching our police to
    ask more questions to identify
    indicators. It’s a similar change to
    the way interviews are now being
    conducted by Crime Department
    detectives,” he said.

    Southern Metro Region’s
    Inspector Michael Sayer said
    that while the method was used
    primarily for vehicle intercepts,
    the principles could be applied
    to a search of any premises or
    conversation with any person.

    “The indicators don’t
    discriminate. You are not
    profiling anyone based on
    physical characteristics. It is all
    about observing the behavioural,
    physical and verbal indicators.
    We are looking for behaviours
    that are different to the norm,”
    Insp Sayer said.

    “You can’t be blasé about
    the interception of a vehicle.
    The message is that the next
    interception you do is the most
    important one you will ever do.
    You have got to be able to listen,
    observe and pick up the clues.

    “The more indicators you get,
    the clearer the picture you get.
    It’s like painting by numbers.”
    The method is achieving results.
    To date, Victoria Police members
    trained to use CATCH have seized
    more than $1.8 million in drugs,
    firearms, stolen property and cash.

    In Nhill in March, Horsham
    Highway Patrol Unit intercepted
    a vehicle after it drove past them
    without so much as batting an
    eyelid, noting this as highly
    unusual behaviour.

    The driver, who had no prior
    convictions, got out of his vehicle
    and was cooperative with police.
    He was, however, over-friendly,
    telling police in great detail where
    he had been and what he had
    bought to the extent that he opened
    the car’s back door to show police
    what he had bought.

    During this conversation,
    police saw several new car
    deodorisers on the floor. They
    asked the driver if he possessed
    or used cannabis. The driver
    admitted to possessing a small
    amount. Police found 1.4 grams
    of cannabis on the front seat.

    A further search of the car
    found 448 grams of cannabis,
    sealed in an air tight bag, hidden
    under the driver’s seat cover.
    The driver was charged and
    pleaded guilty. He was fined $500.

    Simply by engaging in
    conversation and identifying typical
    indicators of behaviour,
    police are
    making significant seizures."