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Cornering .. 'Throttle Control'?

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' started by VCM, Jul 1, 2009.

  1. With winter here, my only riding is restricted to my daily commute. Hense I leave experimenting/cornering practice for finer weather. This time of year I usually try dedicating to the 'theory' side of motorcycling.
    I am, however, a little confused about something and am hoping for some clarification. I have read that
    - "You enter most corners OFF throttle & ON the brakes"
    - " A motorcycle turns better if the throttle is slightly closed, inducing the forward weight transfer etc... "
    - "A slowing bike falls into the corner better"
    Also understand that maintenance throttle arrests the lean etc.

    Is this a 'street' technique ?
    I mostly corner like this:
    - slow on approach to desired speed
    - I usually reach that speed without brakes ( usually engine braking only) then keep throttle stabilized BEFORE the corner
    - I keep throttle constant as I tip in, then add a little once the bike is leaned
    - Add throttle once I've approached the exit.

    I am wondering now, whether i should in fact be on a trailing throttle ( reducing) and on brakes as opposed to the constant throttle. The only problem I see with this is the transition from 'off' to maintenance throttle .. wouldn't this upset the bike mid-turn?

    EDIT: I am talking your average corner here, not high speed twisties.
  2. I corner like you corner.... Set up before the lean.

    Seems logical to me, but maybe we are wrong.

    Waiting for the technical replies.
  3. I corner with a stable throttle as well.
  4. I corner like you. If I even tried what your post describes my bike "understeers" (wants to do nothing but run wide).
  5. Constant throttle will see your speed drop slightly as you corner (the diameter of the tyre is smaller on the sides, meaning more revs to keeps the same speed) you should be rolling on at least a little, according to Keith Code.

    This gets you weight transfer right, roughly 40/60 front/rear.

    Grab a copy of Twist of The Wrist II, sounds like what you're reading is incorrect, especially the part about turning better with a closed throttle.
  6. Have read TOTW II a few times, the above was from Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.
  7. theres the keith code technique and theres the trailbraking technique that us mostly used for fast riding where you tip it in under brakes.

    keith code technique is roll off, tip in, power out.

    Whatever works for you best is what you should use
  8. Vinnie I think the short answer is it depends on the bike and the corner radius and probably a few other factors. So what works for you, works for you.
    I "think" I'm similar to you but depending on the mood I may still be slowing as I tip in and get on the gass a little earlier.

    Like I say, it all depends.

    P.S. The weather is improving start riding on weekends again too:LOL:
  9. Cool, who writes about the trail braking technique? I would like to read.

    I find myself doing that every now & then, but I thought I was doing it wrong!
  10. I may be putting unnecessary emphasis on the science of riding, but feel knowledge can only help one go forward with their riding.

    Yep, some weekends are pretty good Chris, but between catching up on home maintenance & all these bloody birthdays the relos & friends seem to have over this time of year, I barely get a chance to get out there.

    Sale is def on my list this year mate!
  11. Re: Cornering .. 'off' throttle , please explain?

    Spot on. The bike certainly tips in quicker. It becomes blindingly obvious in situations like a chicane. Off throttle, tip in, throttle on (and yes arrests lean obviously), start picking bike up for change of direction, off throttle through middle of the change of direction, back on throttle as the bike is falling towards desired lean angle. Sometimes a dab of rear brake in the middle of the change of direction too. The off and on throttle is smooth, never closed throttle, and very quick on a brisk change of direction, but it's necessary where the corner is most dependent on how quickly you can change direction.

    I only mention the chicane, because it is a good example to test for yourself to see the effect. Try and do it again with a steady throttle the whole time.

    As for whether you do this on the street, yes and no. My above example, certainly even if you're just cruising. Tipping in from vertical on an average corner, you probably do it subconciously on suburban 90 degree corners, and there is no need at all on sweepers.

    And VCM, it's not science, it's making the bike do what you want when you want.
  12. Re: Cornering .. 'off' throttle , please explain?

    Where on earth did you get this from?

    No wonder you're confused. Weight transfer forward is only of value when braking (and usually from some speed). For the type of riding you are talking about, you want to be off the brakes before turning in.
    If you are currently moving through the turn on a constant or slowly increasing throttle - keep doing it.

    Circumstances may force you to to slow mid-corner, and the bike may then tip in further, but that's not necessarily a good thing. It's going to be less stable.

    I suppose it's possible that a bike with a really long steering rake (like some cruisers) might need to slow to turn in properly, but even then I doubt it.
  13. titus: that is quoted from sport riding techniques. I am sure he means off throttle and brakes BEFORE the tip in, just seems unnatural to me as I prefer to be at a constant throttle.

    Devo: might explain why I feel it's not quite right for every application. Most of the corners I hit are more or less sweeping bends, 80-100km. Nothing too aggresive.
  14. I think the idea is that if the forks are compressed the steering geometry changes and its easier to tip in. Got a vague memory Keith Code talks about going into a corner under brakes and slowly releasing them until the fork compression is equal to that involved in the cornering. Farked if I can do it in general and I do what you do. Occasionally do it by accident. :grin:
  15. It's a steering geometry thing - forward weight transfer compresses the front forks. Being on the front brakes compresses the forks even more because one of the brake reaction forces is resolved up the forks compressing it.

    Anyway, it means a quick steer, but once you're tipping, the decelleration needs to be reducing so that more traction is handed over to steering rather than braking.

    It's great track technique but for the road I prefer the KC method you outlined in your second description Vinnie. Set your speed, arrive at your tip in point with a nuetral bike, tip in, roll on, accelerate through, accelerate out style.

    Flux doesn't like the KC method because he believe it has potential to unsettle the bike especially if you arrive at your set speed tapering off the brakes moments before you tip in. Yeh, ok, fine if you're transitioning your technique from pure KC to trail braking where the tapering continues on PAST tip in.

    BUT, if you're off the brakes well before the corner and the bike arrives at constant speed and you tip in then roll on a bit, then roll on as you go through, the bike is absolutely planted and there are no decelleration forces on top of cornering forces to get your SR's amped up.

    Does this help Vinnie?
  16. Not really, it always helps to clear things up. I was suprised that the stay upright rider training courses put a big emphasis on having NO power through the corner. It struck me as weird at the time so I asked to clarify and that was indeed their position - no power through the corners.
  17. On a sweeping bend, the speed with which you tip in is less so a limiting factor than how little speed you washed off and how smoothly you enter the corner. With tighter and slower corners, it's the opposite.

    It's all a moot point if you're just toodling along though.

    That's my eperience so far anyway.
  18. Sounds like it's all technique for ragged edge stuff, stuff that could shave 10th's of seconds off, but leave you with little/no safety margin if things go wrong. Trying to learn this on this on the street could get you into biiiig trouble. Track fun though :p
  19. PERFECTLY Rob , Thanks ;-)
    I'll keep doing what I'm doing with emphasis on improving.
  20. There are so many Absolute statements in this thread…
    Non of them are Absolutely right, and non of them are absolutely wrong.

    The KC method is definitely the safest as you learn. As Rob has pointed out he thinks it is safest all-round, but Flux thinks it unsettles the bike. (And neither of them is a slouch in the saddle)

    Up until recently I have been very much a set speed tip in then roll on type of person, but now that I have brakes, suspension and above all tyres that I feel confident in, I have been breaking right into the tip in for some corners. Because the suspension is compressed and the weight is forward it steepens the steering geometry, this makes the tip in much faster, but it also takes away your safety margin. If you just bob straight off the breaks and onto the throttle at this point it upsets the balance, so you have to gently transfer the weight which means you have to have plush suspension, feeling in your brakes, and good throttle control.

    So gains to losses it is a lot of work… If you are still getting your head around it, I’d say keep reading and thinking on it, don’t push for it to early.