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Cornering "in the real world"

Discussion in 'General Motorcycling Discussion' started by FormerUser1, Aug 6, 2005.

  1. http://www.msgroup.org/DISCUSS.asp

    Great stuff here !!! A BIG thanks to Matt232 for that site.
    Scroll down to point 39 in the left box.
    "Handing curves" is a very brief version of how to do it right (at least on "real" roads, possibly not the track).
    Safety and fun rolled into one sweet package.
    How do you corner?
  2. Interesting site , good call Matt :D
  3. Very good read; very familiar also. I think i read something similar to that a few months ago. Just after doing my P's course i completely changed my riding style and adopted a very similar late tip-in approach.

    I remember it being explained to me as you turn in when you can see your line through the corner, not just the entry to it. I must say that i wish i had been taught (or paid attention to) it earlier in my learner days as it would have avoided a few of my close calls.
  4. I find the article a little confusing (must be my old age). I understand what is explained, but the diagram used to explain makes it look more like taking an early apex and a wide exit. Perhaps I need to refresh my comprehension skills. If the diagram is accurate to what the author is trying to explain then I find so disadvantages, such as:

    1. Early apex means tight exit

    2. Most people make the mistake of early apex's as it "feels safer". Problem is earlier the apex the wider the apex (see point 1). Issue is with the person coming the other way - whilst you are running wide, they are cutting in too early.
    3. Cutting in early reduces how far through the corner you can see.

    4. If you go to fast into the corner, using this technique, how far you can see is reduced and say the corner tightens up, or changes camber, or surface. And it is at this point when you turn the sharpest?

    5. The smoother you can be through a corner the better as it helps keep the bike balanced and is more gentle on teh changing load placed on the tires. This does not look as smooth as it could be.

    I do agree strongly that the line taken on the track is different to that taken on the road. To explain it in detail is something that is beyond me to do in words, but more so something that has to be explained and shown in person. In short however, the easiest way to know when you have gotten a corner right is when it feels right. Coz if it feels stuffed, it probably was, but when it feels right it most often has been.

    Of course I could not be understanding the article correctly.

  5. I can see what he's getting at, but it's really a very minor difference to the classic "wide in - wide out" line. He does have a point that his approach allows you to accelerate sooner, but, again, if we're talking about riding in the real world, then that isn't a critical concern either. Gaining a poofteenth of a second by accelerating sooner is only going to get you to the next traffic jam a poofteenth of a second sooner.

    I have ridden the classic style for over 30 years and find that it's smooth and fast. It allows you to compensate for sudden changes in the road, the corner, the surface and keeps me well within my lane.

    Now, here's a little experiment to try. I did this while my son-in-law was learning a few weeks ago.

    Find a good sweeping corner and ride it using the "wide in - wide out" line. Concentrate hard on NOT changing the throttle opening until you are straight up again and out of the corner. You will find that the bike is going faster on the exit to the corner than it was on the entry, and you haven't accelerated yet!!! The bike seems to have accelerated all by itself.


    Because the classic line slows the bike the least through the corner. Someone who's brilliant at phyics can explain why but I know it works, and when I got my son-in-law to do it he couldn't believe it was happening.

    That's my 2 cents worth anyway.

    BTW, the racers "square off" the corners, and then "fire" the bike down the next straight. But they're on a billiard-smooth surface, have an unlimited supply of tyres (and courage) and need to gain every tenth of a second they can...Kids, don't try this at home.
  6. All it basically comes down to is that the writer is assuming that the roads here in Australia are actually decent enough and the corners smooth enough....Must be good living in a perfect world !
  7. When you lean the bike over, the effective tyre diameter decreases, therefore the circumference decreases, therefore it doesn't go as far for each revolution. As you come out of the corner & stand the bike up......
    You get the idea.

  8. The article refers to the GREEN line in the graph, the RED being the "normal" line.
    Then it all makes sense....
  9. The article refers to the GREEN line in the graph, the RED being the "normal" line.
    Then it all makes sense....[/quote]

    That is what I thought and hence my comments with regards to the green line.

  10. Like yourself, I rode the "classic" for nearly 30 years.
    Then came across an article by Keith Code (on the net) which seemed to make sorta sense in some ways (at the time, anyway).
    It was a hard task to try this and I didn't feel comfortable at first, old habits are hard to break.
    What started as a "high in-high out" and hopefully symmetrical affair (classic style) has now changed to pretty much exactly the line described (green line in graph).
    The obvious advantages:
    Being high AND deep on entry gives me better visibility through a greater portion of the bend (longer "hang-time").
    It keeps me away from oncoming traffic that's "cooking" it , or rather overcooking it....or a very wide vehicle mid-bend....
    After the "distinct tip-in" (at which time I'd be slower than with the classic-line), the majority of the bend is ridden on throttle alone but ALWAYS leaves the option to back off anywhere, even use the brakes anywhere on the "trajectory-line".

    Through twisties I habitually have a tight-exit (close to the white-line in righthanders, opposite in lefties) to be ready (and "on-line" ) for the bend, being able to see more of the road ahead than from a "wide-exit-position".
    Riding the "flat-line" past the natural apex of the bend I can also adjust the "drift" of the bike better with MORE ROOM TO SPARE, allowing for dirt/ gravel/ twigs/ leaves/ anything-in-the-way...even standing the bike up to avoid obstacles...again, there's extra room for it.

    The classic line has smaller margins, therefore less safety.

    It's not about being quicker through bends, but safer.
    Once practised, the above method is actually just as quick as the classic, but through different segments of any given bend.
  12. I'll try it and see. Theoretically I can see the advantages, reserving judgement until I've tried it.
  13. Green line in graph doesn't show an early apex, but an offset apex.
    Apex is at the same level as the classic-line apex.
    (see point 1) Don't get the rest of "running wide" opposing traffic cutting in early. By the green line there is way more room through entry AND exit to adjust for oncoming traffic.

    See point 1, the green line clearly cuts-in LATER and HIGHER-LATER, therefore BETTER visibility. Shallow exit-line also allows for more corrections if needed.
    It doesn't look smooth but it certainly is. Corner-speeds equal the classic line but are different through the various section of the bend.

    "When it feels right" is often fairly deceptive and can also (at least occasionally) be labelled "lucky"....lucky it turned out ok.
    The classic line doesn't give as much room for error.
    It's hard to break old habits and adopt 'new tricks', if it helps to save my arse though....it's well worth it.
  14. Exactly my words then...but it takes effort and will NOT feel right or natural at first, particularly the later (and more severe) tip-in point.
    Initially it's harder to ride since one has to find (and make) one's OWN apex, rather than taking hints from road-markings etc. as a guide to the "natural" apex of the bend.
    The main benefits are 2-fold:
    1. bigger safety margins in every sense (more road available for corrections/ better visibility)
    2. far better control of bike-placement (by not allowing the bike it's "natural-arc"), better control of the bike itself through throttle.
  15. I'm a big fan of James's articles - you can download all of them at once in a huge "riding bible " pdf.

    My biggest issue with the late-apex cornering thing is getting comfortable entering a right-hand corner right over on the left shoulder, particularly on country roads with gravel shoulders. It's something I'm actively practicing and it leads to better visibility through the corner, a later apex and less time spent with my noggin hanging out in the oncoming traffic lane.

    I've noticed you're good at it Pete - you seem quite comfy on the left-hand white line coming into a bend, and I'm sure it helps you keep those corner speeds up even driving that big ole bus of yours. :)

    I'm reading "a twist of the wrist II" at the moment, which has some great stuff in it about using the throttle to balance your traction properly. It's out there for free if you know where to look... ;)
  16. I don't have a problem starting right out on the line, that's just familiarity with the bike and placement accordingly.

    It's the concept of going much deeper into the corner before "tipping in" that is unfamiliar.
  17. https://netrider.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?p=126075#126075

    I've just started reading the riding bible again hence my post. Found the huge printout I did ages ago under a pile of mags I've been whittling down and getting stuck into it again.
  18. The big exception I found to this kind of cornering technique was in the north west of tassie when just about every corner had gravel through the corner between the wheel ruts. In that case, after the first 2 or 3 corners of line adjustment I just started taking the corners in one of the wheel ruts. Obviously it wasn't the fastest way around the corner but it was reliably the safest in those conditions.
  19. Differing techniques and view points are one of the benefits of this forum. Two people can see the same thing and interpret them differently.

  20. google, google....
    It's really more off the left edge of the left-car-track, which is usually pretty clean, trying to avoid the white line though :) The apex isn't really any later, it's at around the same level, just shifted into my own lane rather than the mid-line of the road as a whole...as mentioned above, the tricky part is to create one's own apex.

    As long as it isn't wet, I'm not too fussed about the left-white either, just don't like to tip-in right on top of it.
    Good reading, that... and using the throttle to actually ride the bend is the whole idea. Rather than speed/ weight of the bike "drifting" in a semi-idle/ semi-suspended fashion through the bend on the classic-line, the "hook-line" gives complete control via any and all chosen inputs...throttle/brakes/ peg-weighing/ shoulder-positioning....up to knee-scraping and butt-out rear-wheel drifts with the front climbing if one wants to take it to the extreme...and all still with the "gold-portion" of one's own lane as a safety buffer.

    All that goes down the tube with gravel all over the road...but so does the classic-line.