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Cornering bible cheat sheet

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' started by dima, Aug 27, 2012.

  1. Hi,

    While reading the Twist of the wrist I took a few notes that I refer to from time to time.
    I am sure some of you will find this cheat sheet useful. No particular structure though and pretty short.

    So there you go.

    Cornering bible cheat sheet

    Rolling off the throttle
    Transfers the weight forward and destabilizes the bike instantly.
    Suspension doesn't work.
    Running wide, bad line.

    Combat it by smooth throttle control:

    - 40/60 front/rear weight distribution
    - once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on smoothly, evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn
    - all lines follow the throttle
    - don't charge the turns

    Too tight on the bars

    Destabilizes the bike by disallowing forks to move side-to-side (which naturally happens all the time)
    Tires and suspension can't absorb 100% of the road imperfections.
    Running wide (counter steering to the outside).

    - relax (force yourself to)
    - hold on to the bike (tank, footpegs)
    - ride loose and low
    - one steering action per turn

    Error: too much lean
    Bike is more stable when it is more upright. Leaning too much destabilises it unnecessarily.

    Too early entry creates a decreasing radius turn opening doors to all errors

    Steer as quickly as possible in every turn.
    Quick turn abilities determine corner entry speed.

    Tools of turning:
    1. How quickly
    2. How much
    3. Where

    No turn-point consumes your most valued asset - attention.

    Use outside peg as steering pivot point. Pivot steering.

    SRs connected with the space are the worst. "not enough space" is a common denominator.

    Use wide screen view - move your awareness not the eyes.

    Use two-step turn entry (spot the turn point, look into the turn before arriving there).

    Go only as fast as you can see. Throttle controls your space.

    Don't snap the brakes. If locked release.
    You lose 100% of the steering if the front is locked.

    Learn to use 100% front brake. Spinning rear wheel provides a lot of stabilization vi a gyro effect.
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Nice one, mate.
    From a new riders perspective, I'd say the easiest one on the list to forget is to relax. I've found that during the process of setting up for the corner I automatically tense up. If I can remind myself to relax before I get there it all flows so much better.

    Leaning with the bike and using countersteering to set up the lean/ line, not bodyweight, helps a lot for me and makes it easy to make fine connections through the corner if necessary eg for bumps & potholes.

    Thanks for a great precis.

  3. Good start mate. Don't stop there. There's another 20 chapters to go!!

    Tell me about pivot steering. Try as I might, that's one part of KC I just don't get.
  4. Just a few quick comments.

    Rolling of the throttle, does transfer weight to the front end but, it doesn't necessarily destabilise it. And reducing or closing the throttle makes the bike turn in or hold it's line. Not run wide.

    Yes, crack the throttle open to maintain your speed. But you don't then continue to roll on throttle. You can only start winding on the throttle as you see corner starting to open up and then full throttle once you can see the exit point. You do not just keep rolling on the throttle through turn.

    As for pivot steering, I have never seen anyone who could demonstrate it, and I can't get a grasp on it either. I would remove that section completely.

    Carry on.
  5. 60/40...how you going to measure that?

    +10 on Ravens idea of what a throttle will do.
    Mid corner or really most of the corner the throttle is controlling the radius of your turn...or it should be. This is why John means you either roll down or hold or roll it on. Nothing on a bike is a sharp movement. And the more ponies you have the more control you need over the throttle.
    This is in a perfect world and a perfect corner. If shoite happens a little bit more than throttle control is going to be needed

    Sorry the 60/40 bit.
    Keep your ass on the seat and try to get as much of your weight forward as you can. That will give you 63.476 but don't worry too much bout that.

    Clear your head and feel the bike, don't do anyything stupid or erratic and the bike will show you how to ride to a certain level. And the level of fighting a bike is pretty fast
  6. KC would disagree - ultimately, yes it tightens your line as you drop speed and hold your steering input. There's good reasons why the first dynamic response is a widening of the line though.

    He has paraphrased KC correctly Raven.
    • Like Like x 2
  7. He explains this more clearly in the video, he explains it as the amount of acceleration from 4,000 RPM to 6,000 RPM in 5th gear on almost any bike larger than 600 cc. He calls that a smooth roll on of the throttle.
    I've watched the video twice and have tried to implement the ideas when I'm riding and have found that it helps significantly.

    I don't think the pivot steering is anything magical, I thought it just meant using the outside footpeg as a brace, turning your hips into the corner and having the upper body to the inside of the corner, just like you see competent riders demonstrating on sports bikes at track days and so on.
  8. I guess what I am trying to say is paralysis by analysis if you have that much going on in your head while trying to get around a corner
    I guess it is human nature to categorize it and put it in a box
  9. How does that help you get the powersteering that he talks about?

    If it's just about locking onto the bike with the outside leg, that's easy, but he's talking about something more than that.
  10. As I've been relearning to ride it seemed natural to me to roll the throttle on to compensate for the slowing action of turning into the corner, being on a fairly low powered bike makes the amount of trottle to crank on exit a bit less critical in my case. The timing, though, is important because I wont always be on this bike and thats the bit I've had to work on.
    I dont get the pivot steering bit though.
    Thanks for the post, all good stuff to keep thinking about.
  11. Power steering or power sliding
    For mine power steering is lighting up the rear to turn the front in. Loosing traction to the outside.
    Maybe might do this if I have committed to the throttle coming out of a corner and the edge is a little bit close. For this I am keeping my weight forward right thru to aid steering and lighting up the rear. My Hips are exaggerated a little to help keep me in balance with the slight opposing force of the bike not traveling dead strait.

    Power sliding is both wheels getting about a 1/3 sideways to forward motion. Where you are just lighting up the rear enough to keep the bike in some sort of line. But mostly trying to keep the front up while it wants to go sideways.
    Here I will really exaggerate the hips to help keep me with the .."momentum" I guess.
    I guess it can be explained better in bio mechanics. no diff to a gymnast, dancer so forth.
  12. He isn't just referrring to keeping your arms low so you are pushing directly forward on the bars is he? He does go through that on the video and shows how much more efficient it is than pressing down partially when your arms are higher?
  13. That's just efficient steering and is essential for quick steering.

    Bretto, KC describes this pivot steering as a power steering, helping make steering inputs more effective. I just don't get how pushing down on the outside pegs gives you any additional leverage to helping with the inside bar input.
  14. You don't have all that in your head at once. Just practice a bit at a time.
    IE. Get your lines right first, picking the corner marker, the direction change, the apex, the exit and setup for the next corner
    Then practice the throttle roll on so it adds to the previous lesson and helps you smooth and maintain the lines.
    Then add the body positioning and so on.

    No way a learner is going to do all that at once and get it right.
    Build a base and add the different refinements to it one at a time.
    Work on smooth with good lines.
    That's what I've been doing anyway.
    • Like Like x 1
  15. I think it just locks you into the bike and allows the arms to be used for steering inputs and not holding on, it relaxed arms that can focus on the steering. I'm pretty sure that's what he says in the video. He doesn't meen pushing down as in dramatically weighting the outside peg (he actually demonstrates that this isn't effective for steering early in the video), but just using your outside leg and knee against the tank and locking it in with your foot pressing down and back on the peg.

    It's a shame the video isn't interactive so you could ask these questions and get him to clarify some of these points. Does anyone know if the California Superbike Schools they run here teach exactly the same as he does?
  16. For mine it doesn't. It does give me a nice brace with my outside foot, so I see the pivot now. Bar to peg. The more weight on the outer peg, the heavier the inner bar will be to push on tho. That's a given. That's also the pivot. The connection
    Essential when sliding to keep the bike even, the lean angle.
    For me now I am riding with my dirt bike style. I luv it. I mean now when the bike is sliding all over the place.
    On the dirt bike traction isn't an issue cause it isn't there. Going awfully quick on one is a lot of getting the rear pointing where you want to go and using the power to get there. The bike is on the ground but constantly floating form braking point to braking point. It's a drift. A dance with the bike.
  17. In the other book (Proficient Motorcycling) the author described the same.
    When you "pivot" on the outside peg you don't push the bike "under" and rather do a slight push to make it upright. Thus the bike is supposed to be more stable.

    Also it is supposed to make couter sterring a bit faster since the bike will easier and quicker move to the outside and than back into a turn.

    That's approximately how I understand it.
  18. Oh yeah...I do understand it peripherally. I mean I haven't bothered with it, but know it's there.
    I just don't count it for much, especially on a noobs quick reference page.
    The slowing of the bike makes it turn tighter, and the throttle controls that. And there also other things contributing, but for the noob, or even reasonably experienced like me, who like to just stick with basics, it ends up as power on - run wide, power off - tighten up, cracked throttle - steady line. All other things being equal, of course.

    He may have. I don't think I questioned that. This is one of KC's ideas that works really well on corners with clear visibility, consistant surface, nice clearly marked edges and obvious or very well known points of apex...like a race track.
    Even then, it can be almost impossible to use back in the pack unless the other riders are also using it.

    On the Road, with blind corners, inconsistent surface, tightening radius turns, double apexes etc I don't see how it can be of any use to ride a bike with constant speed gain through increased throttle around such a such a corner.

    On my own, leading the race, or in last place by a 100yds, then sure, I could make that work, and do so on several of the corners at PI...but not all of them.

    I don't believe it is the way to corner on a bike, mate.

    This is gonna bog down the thread if we discuss it so I'll shut up about it, but you can have the last say on it, if you want to, mate.
  19. Yes, in slow speeds. At anything faster than "slow" the minute you shut off the throttle you will go straight because the forces are suddenly moved onto the front (probably overloading the fork) which puts the bike upright.
    You can't tighten the turn much being upright.

    Of course then you can tighten the turn, but the first thing that's happening is you go off the road. Tried and proven :)

    Unless you mean something different...
  20. Um lets see if I've got this right...cause I'm not brite

    KC's theory is roll off throttle, Brake, turn in, and start applying the throttle in a nice continuous fashion @ the apex.

    Hard to argue with that. It is pure. And when you do it well and on the limit the belly pangs go nuts.
    Because on the limit his theory is restricted by nailing that entry speed. And is only factoring in A corner. not a section of corners. Where in one or two you might need to sacrifice speed to gain the in the section.
    Thinking there is not enough threads on feet here..and or not enough people using them properly..actively.
    I like the leverage too. For me it was all about grip, feel and balance.