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Conspiracy theory

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by kneedragon, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. #1 kneedragon, Apr 30, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016

    conspiracy theory
    That could be a whole other thread I reckon.
    Can't get to the bottom of lizard men without drawn out analysis I'm sure."

    Actually, I think that's a really good idea.
    Conspiracies I don't agree with:

    Chem trails. Aeroplanes leave vapour trails. Get over it.

    Moon Landing Fake. We went there, get over it.

    Fluoride makes you soft in the head. Perhaps it does, but you were soft in the head already. It's about teeth.

    Illuminate. Actually, this is complicated. The vast majority of it is pure sheet. To many it's a joke, and to some I think it's deliberate disinformation, to shower poo on the whole concept of conspiracies. There is also deliberate disinformation out there about things which are real, but the illuminate are a group which existed for a little while in the 17th century and then got caught and it all went public, and that's all my friend - finished.

    Conspiracies I do agree with:

    Lee Harvey Ozwald Did not kill JFK. He told the truth - "I'm a patsy!"

    Sept 11 was an inside job. They may have roped in a few real Islamic extremists to help, so they had some patsies, but the movers and shakers and planners and people who put that little effort on, were the people paid to defend and protect America. It was a false-flag attack, to justify Iraq 2 and Afghanistan. And Dept Homeland Security and various other spying and intelligence efforts.

    LOL - the destruction of the Australian Democrats. This third party waffled along in 3rd place for years, and then they got rather a good looking and charismatic young woman as leader. Then she started to say some things that had real appeal and resonance with the voters. Democrats share of the primary vote at the next general was looking to go up to about what one of the majors would have, when suddenly the number two at the party started a take-over and song and dance that anybody with any political nous would know was a death-knell for the party. He demolished the democrats, destroyed them, and he would have KNOWN that was going to happen. So, why did he do it? Who put him up to it?
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  2. I agree with all of those except the last one, I just can't see that level of evil in the public service even in America.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Your opinion, you're entitled to it...

    In 1940 and '41 the elite in America very much wanted to get in on the conflict in Europe, but a large part (way over half) of the American people were dead against it. "We did this once, only 20 years ago, and now the dumb f*ckers are doing the same thing again. Let them sort it out."

    So the US sent all the new and flash parts of its Navy to the Atlantic. And it sent all its old and barnacle encrusted to Pearl Harbour. Then it very deliberately broke an agreement it had made only a year or two earlier with the Empire of Japan, to supply them with commodities like coal and oil and iron ore. Then it sent a series of very carefully composed communications to the Japanese Gov, which read as reasonable in English, but in Japanese were offensive. Very offensive. They closed their eyes, tipped their head back, tapped their finger against their chin and said "Come on f*ckers, what are you, chicken or something?"

    How many people died on December 7 1941? That was not a false flag attack, but they sure as hell provoked it, and knew it was coming...
  4. It's not a conspiracy theory if it isn't a good one.
    One thing I am confident of is that they let Bin Ladin go free out of Afghanistan. They could have blown him off the face of the earth when they discovered his location but instead refused to provide the manpower and ordinance to achieve it.
    Any theories on why they would have done that ?
  5. #5 kneedragon, Apr 30, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
    That's part of a long one... Osama was a boogie-man. He was the man the CIA had fed funds through, to help the Taliban fight the Russians. At that time, he was a CIA agent and asset. Then .. the earth cooled and then came the dinosaurs... So the Russians went home and the Yanks got out of the whole deal so fast it broke windows... "Tali - WHO? F_k no, nothin to do with us..."

    People IN the Taliban were outraged. "These people gave us guns and training and equipment and airlifts and ... Now they say we f*ck dogs and our mothers give bad head. What do you say we give them some of their ordinance back, with the fuses in?"

    That's roughly the line Osama followed too. What I'm not sure about, was whether he was being honest, or whether he was doing as ordered (or suggested) by his handlers at the CIA.

    The Soviet Union wasn't there as an external threat any more - how do we justify a standing army of a million men and real equipment for it? What reason have we got for 300 MIRVs and 60+ nuke attack subs and 8 carrier groups and ... ? Either the position of the defence intelligence community is going to get a bit less important, and a bit less money, or we have to have an external threat to replace the USSR. So who could we have as a figure-head for this threat?


    Where's that fuggen Bin Laden boy? HE might fit rather nicely...

    Last thing in the world you'd want to do, is actually blow him up. What would you do then?

    Now, by the time they went into Pakistan and wasted him, nearly a decade had gone by and lots had changed, and a dead Osama can't tell tales...
    They EXTRACTED him, in Afghanistan, and wisked him away to safety. They still had use for him...
  6. *puts on tin foil hat*

    Chem trails are a big pet peeve of mine when people say they are dumping nasty stuff to control us, all they do is form clouds and not very long lasting ones at that usually.

    When I was a kid, the biggest conspiracy theory in the schoolyard was that peanut butter gave you cancer of the armpit... specifically the armpit.

    I enjoy the entertainment when conspiracies get linked, like Elvis and Marilyn aren't dead and are running some sort of venture in the mid-west. Probably got James Dean and Jim Morrison working there as kitchen hands. Stuff like that becomes part of the American Folk-Lore.
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  7. OMG are they dead? Really?....damn :(
    • Funny Funny x 3
  8. Just an observation on conspiracy in general, not any specific one...

    Lots of people just roll their eyes and start on about UFOs and junk when any conspiracy gets mentioned. I think that's a bit naive. People DO conspire - it's human nature. Sometimes that comes out in the open and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it works according to plan and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the conspiracy is purely for personal gain and greed, and sometimes it's to try to build a better world. And sometimes their concept of "better" is fairly close to mine and sometimes it's not. I am pretty confident that Hitler and Himler and Hess didn't sit down one night and ask "What's the most evil thing we can do?" - they had views about the world and how to make it better, and they went to work to bring that vision about. They were prepared to take steps other more squeamish people would not. (No, I'm not in favour, I'm just making a point.)

    Allen Dulles and the top brass at the CIA knew that the Bay of Pigs thing had gone very badly, and JFK was coming gunning for them, with the intent to break up the CIA into at least two smaller bodies with less resources and far more oversight, and so they looked at how they had been changing governments in little third world countries, and asked how they could scale that process up to change the government in their own country... They murdered their own president and staged a right-wing coup. And they arranged a huge investigation / cover-up to get a false version out there and destroy as much real evidence as they could.

    The nature of conspiracy theory is that very wild ideas come up, and some very bad thinking goes around. That gives the whole subject a bad name. But blindly denying there are any conspiracies or have been, is equally deluded. It is human nature. People do conspire. It doesn't always work, but they do it... Equally, it's human nature that people think about this stuff and toss ideas around. That doesn't make them (us) paranoid delusional idiots, (although there are some...) but it does mean some very bad ideas get a lot of airplay.
  9. ... And some conspiracies just take on a life of their own, become much more than they started as...

    In the 1930s, Orson Wells did a radio play adaptation of H. G. Wells' War of the Worlds. It caused PANIC! The US military were fascinated, they'd never seen anything like that before, and they were deeply interested. Within a week they were talking around the water cooler about how they could use and implement the same kind of phenomena. Then WW2 happened, which kept them busy for a while. They did learn a few things about information management. So after the war, this business of War of the Worlds came up again, and they put together a small scale exercise / experiment, to see what would happen.

    They staged a flying saucer crash at Roswell, New Mexico. They gave very detailed and specific orders to the commander at the local Air Force base on what he was to do, and he followed them. He went out and gathered up the 'wreckage' and he gave a statement to the local (small) newspaper that they had found and recovered the wreck of a flying saucer, and a couple of crew. Then about 8 hours later, at like 4am local time, they rang the editor and hopped up and down and shouted, and demanded the story be squashed and denied it and did a very loud and shoddy cover-up. They presented an excuse and a cover story, which was not very good. The paper had already been printed and was going out. They demanded every copy be found and destroyed. Naturally, this paper became somewhat sought after... From there, they a) denied everything, and b) changed their story about 16 times. From time to time, 'witnesses' who claimed to have been there, came forward with their stories... From that day until this, the number one source in the world, of flying saucer stories, is the US Air Force...

    The original reason, was just an experiment. "Let's see what happens..." But it grew. They had some people who were briefed that it was all a lie, and other people briefed that it was true, but a secret. They played games with information management. They used it as a test or guide as to who could be trusted and who could not, who could and who could not follow orders.... It was used as a training mechanism. In the broader community it became associated with things like cattle mutilations. In the '60s, experiments were done on soldiers with the use of drugs and brainwashing techniques. I have a very strong suspicion they also kidnapped a few members of the public, and tried some weird sh1+ on them, and staged the scene that they were being 'experimented on by aliens'. Then they watched what happened...

    About the time the Soviet Union imploded, before we got Islamic Terrorism to fight, they seriously looked at the idea of selling "Alien Invasion" as the external threat. "Yes, it's true - for over 50 years we have been defending you in secret, but now we need more money and more nukes because the Aliens are coming. Yes, we have been lying to you. We didn't want you to panic. You can see the history, because this goes all the way back to Roswell in 1948..."
  10. ... in the '90s, you go dig up a period 16mm camera and some real (unused) 16mm B&W film, and you stage an 'alien autopsy' with really good effects. Then you leak the footage. Then you deny any knowledge of it, and call it a clever fake...

    You have people who spend all day most days finding and talking to TV producers, encouraging them to do 'documentaries' about what happened when the aliens came to town, and how the US gov and Mil are covering all this up... (TV people are mugs - they'll buy anything... They are about 5% less gullible and credulous than their target audience...)
  11. It is largely true that the average American (and therefore the government) was isolationist and had no interest in the war in Europe. However, America had major business interests in Nazi Germany and a lot of American business leaders were Nazi sympathisers, at least while there was money to be made. Unlike the communists, the Nazis didn't nationalise foreign business interests but rather tried to encourage them.

    It is also true that US ship, aircraft and weapons manufacturers were making an absolute motza selling supplies to the British (under the lend lease scheme). Put that down as the birth of the US military industrial complex which has been a massive player in US politics ever since.

    Yes, the Americans (and Australians and British) had been provoking the Japanese by denying them access to minerals and oil. The allies were well aware of what the Japanese had done in Manchuria and their ambitions elsewhere in Asia which was to kick out the European colonial powers while they were distracted in Europe. An attack such as the one at Pearl Harbour was inevitable but the timing and location was the big uncertainty. It was only after the Germans invaded Russia that the Japanese knew they wouldn't have to fight against two major powers on two fronts and grew confident enough to consider an attack on the US. I don't believe the Americans wanted a drawn out conflict with the Japanese and it was luck that the attack on Pearl Harbour was not more devastating for the US. The Americans did underestimate the strength of the Japanese and didn't put in the manpower necessary as public sympathy had moved more in tune with "liberating" Europe.

    The aircraft carrier fleets that the US had weren't much use for the European land-based conflict so strategically they were always going to be better off stationed in the Pacific defending American interests such as Hawaii and The Philippines. They weren't all old and barnacle encrusted but the age of the Battleship was coming to an end thanks largely to the effectiveness of relatively inexpensive submarines. The Germans were masters of submarine warfare in the early years of WW2.
  12. #12 kneedragon, Apr 30, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
    How many carriers were tied up in Pearl Harbour on Sunday Dec 7 1941?
    How much of the rest of the Pacific fleet was tied up there?
    All the new, highest value stuff was nowhere to be seen. All the old and leaky stuff was in port, for no apparent reason. The sailors were having a field day, and so were the local nightclubs. The local women rather thought all their Christmases had come at once...

    [edit, rather later]
    I also suspect that in the early days, the Yanks were just so keen to get involved in the European theatre, most of their resources went there. And, at least to begin with, I think the Yanks (like most other Europeans) massively under estimated what the Japanese could do, and how good they were. We all got a bit of a wake-up call about that...
  13. Given a choice between a conspiracy and a stuff-up, go with the stuff-up every time....
    • Agree Agree x 8
  14. I heard a theory once that the government was there to help us.

    Havent seen any evidence yet though
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  15. Kneedragon,the work you put into your posts is truly commendable.
    Well done.
  16. Let's scale down before we scale up.

    The finale of a recent tv show was filmed with two different endings because they could not trust a tiny number of people not to leak the result before it was televised..

    Now try and imagine how hundreds of people, at least, could have kept the secret of a government conspiracy to murder thousands of its own citizens so it could attack another country....

    Farcical nonsense....
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    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. But all those high value aircraft carriers and their supporting vessels weren't in the Atlantic, they were bobbing about in the Pacific Ocean, not very far from Hawaii. The Japanese knew that but were more interested in going after American battleships. That proved to be a major tactical blunder. The US had recognised that the Japanese were becoming a threat in the Pacific and moved much of their Pacific fleet from California to Hawaii in early 1941 in anticipation of any threat. The Japanese and Americans were still negotiating a trade agreement in early December 1941and the Yanks didn't expect anything to happen while negotiations were in progress.

    December 7th was a Sunday and the surprise attack happened just before 8am. Of course most people on base would have been relaxed and in weekend mode. Oahu was still something of a backwater for the US. Apart from the navy base, Hawaii was really only known for growing pineapples and sugar cane. There was a huge Japanese population (it was over 40% in the 1920s) who were largely engaged in farm labour. Japan had close relations with Hawaii going back to the 1880s.

    When the biggest non-agricultural industry in town is the navy with lots of young, bored sailors on shore leave, bars, brothels and tattoo parlours should all be expected to do bumper business. They certainly weren't complaining. There are a couple of interesting documentaries on tattooing and famous tattoo artists of the mid 20th century that cover the Hawaii scene quite well.

    BTW, the Japanese also attacked the US-held Philippines and Guam and the British territories of Singapore, Malaya and Hong Kong within hours of the Pearl Harbour attack (the latter three noted as December 8th because they were across the international date line).
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. JFK that is definitely a cover up to what extent will never be known., a single bullet really?

    9/11 What really hit the Pentagon?
  19. My favorite is people thinking organic or natural or whatever is somehow better and that if you dont follow organic stuff you are sponsoring big bad evil companies.... Little do they know the whole organic thing is a big scam run by a big bag company...
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    • Agree Agree x 1