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Discussion in 'The Pub' started by waedwe, Dec 9, 2009.
And these from the same paper
I am no way saying these guys are right or wrong, just wondering, if the scientists can't agree global warming is happening, and there is in fact some evidence it is just normal weather patterns that have always occured,
Why is there such a rush to change the world and tax us into a greener way, rather than a more gradual investing in cleaner technologies and taking the time to get more accurrate data to find the right answer
Because a bunch of people were stupid enough to say their vote rested on the issue, and seeing as the economy turned to shit and our troops are still in Afghanistan/Iraq there is pressure for Rudd to deliver on something... ANYTHING of what he promised, after he said sorry to some darkish people we've been trying to cover over with money for years.
Regulation of environmental impact, including taxes is also a form of economic stimulus: if you create necessity, you create value - you create a market and you create jobs.
Environmentalism is, however, is not of value to export - when push comes to shove (the economy collapses into recession or depression: primary produce is king. War breaks out: industry is king): bureaucracy and hippy politics are an enormous weakness and liability.
So we take that risk next to NOT actually accomplishing anything for the environment because we'll at least 'feel better' in the meantime.
Come over here Australia, so I can slap you.
I'm sure you could find a couple of mechanics who believe in perpetual motion machines too.
I'm not a scientist, but as a layman, both sides (whether global warming is caused by humans or not) can seemingly come up with pretty compelling material to support their side of the story.
But what IF global warming is human caused, and people don't do jack about it? Then I guess we're ultimately ****ed. If it's not caused by humans, well... so we come up with some other ways to go about life -- not as damaging as being "ultimately ****ed". (Pascal's wager, anyone?)
This article also looks at long term climate changes... and it's right, the climate has changed very dramatically in the long term. But that's virtually irrelevant to us, because we and our descendants don't live on the scale of hundreds of thousands of years. The Holocene 'stable plateau' in temperatures of about the past 10,000 years is the only sensible basis for comparison... and the current conditions of CO2 concentration - and let's not forget the massive impact of methane that's often forgotten - are unprecedented in that more human-scaled time period. Human civilisation has arisen and been nurtured in this period. The period that is of most interest to us is not the next hundred thousand years but the next hundred or so. At current rates of technological progress we'll have solved our energy woes, probably with fusion, in the next few decades. It's what we're doing right now, and the consequences of that for us, our kids and our grandkids, that are the issue of concern. We're basically buying time in a climate that is conducive to our current health and wealth... climate change is not going to kill us all, but it can make us all pretty damn uncomfortable and kill a lot of us.
There are legitimate differences of opinion on the politics and on the kinds of solutions proposed, but most of the 'differences' on the science are deeply dishonest... like the claims that the current warming is entirely natural in origin. Those claims have been tested and found wanting - by those willing to look at the actual science without an agenda.
Couldnt agree more!
the reality is our current way of producing energy is finite. there wont always be oil/coal/natural gas.
You also cant turn you back on the fact that CO2 isnt the only chemical released... there are hundreds of other poisons that are being released by us. If dont correctly and without "alarm" we could fix climate change, find a sustainable energy (it dosnt have to be 100% renewable becuase the earth wont be around for ever!! sun will die!! supernova.
people are just happy to push the problem onto a few genarations later (this is part of what caused this for us!)
The corollary to this is what we often scream about on this forum.
There is NO empirical evidence that proves that increased speed leads to increased road toll. In fact, many European counties have much higher speed limits than Australia and have significantly lower road tolls per capita of population.
BUT, as long as speed (or policing it) = the ability to raise huge amounts of revenue while calming the nerves of the population, then speed will be the target and, like in NSW where the road toll this year is 100 or so more than in 2008, we will be told constantly that speed is the enemy.
So, just like the Millenium Bug that wasted billions of dollars worldwide while charlatan systems engineers "bug-proofed" the world's computers and lined their own pockets in the process, the "climate change" decoy is a convenient excuse to fleece the industrialised world of billions of dollars, yes, Mildred, that means you and me, while allowing nations like China, whose economy and economic clout is now so great that no nation dare oppose it, to run free and continue polluting the atmosphere in the name of progress and "parity"
"Climate Change" is a furphy, and we and our children and our children's children will be paying for it for generations to come.
Meanwhile, the world will go on its cyclical way as it has ever done, before dishonest and greedy politicians and Eco-Nazis decided that there as a killing to be made from it.
No, it isn't. The debate is as to whether or not it is caused by human activity. (Why there is still a debate about it is beyond me, but there it is.)
Well you got that bit right.
Climate Change IS a furphy. There is no sceintific evidence that proves that what we see happening now is anything different from the cyclical swings and roundabouts of the earth's changing face since forever.
And our arrogance in thinking that ANYTHING that we can do can affect to any measurable extent what this planet does is just another exmaple of how stupid and gullible people can be.
That right there sir, is arrogance, or ignorance... take your pick
the earth has taken millions of years to finely tune how it works. Simply removing one species can cause irreversible damage and cause massive change. how does changing something that took millions of years to evolve in a matter of around 100 years NOT have a chance of changing whole dynamics? Simply being ignorant and saying NA NA NA im not listening, its not true NA NA NA will solve nothing. Agreed there is no need to panic, and there are solutions but the reality is no one wants them
Using your "speed" analogy, the Road (the earth) was designed when cars struggled to break the 30mph mark, introducing a new factor of speed (CO2 emissions) without allowing time for the road (The Earth) to be changed and adapted to the "new way" results in a crash (Global warming)
The government sees the crashes and says "speed it the problem" and come up with a terrible solution(emissions trading) without acknowedging the road was not designed for such speeds.
The skeptics come along and say "fixing the road is too expensive, and wont work" because objects have been coliding for years, so there is no problem
Incidentally, talk to any computer scientist who actually *understands* what happened with Y2K and was involved, and they will tell you that massive action and investment avoided massive hassle (planes were never going to fall out of the sky, but there would have been huge and very expensive disruptions to all manner of computer systems).
It blows my mind how an example where prompt and massive action all around the world averted a potential crisis is then used as an argument for why we should do nothing about another potential crisis.
It'd be laughable if is wasn't so sad.
This carbon shi*te will make the dot com bubble pale in significance.
Even if the human race was contributing to speeding up climate change, simply creating a tax will do absolutely jack shit to fix it because the profits from this tax will be chewed up and filtered into all the other useless projects our government undertakes in it's typical haphazard fashion.
I the leaders of this and other countries were serious about doing something about climate change, they should be encouraging primary industries to manufacture their products with a more focused environmental approach, rather than making them pay a tax that will ultimately be maid for by us the consumers / end users.
In any event, Australia plays such an insignificant part in primary production compared to that of of China, USA and Japan etc , any contribution we may make to this hypothetical and largely baseless claim of industrially influenced climate change wouldn't even be measurable.
I'm not saying we sit on our hands, I just believe that if we're to be serious about this, we should be looking at constructive ways to remedy it, rather than just stick a speed camera there and hope for the best.
I for one am for the tax. The consumer drives the market. If the price at the pump rises we seek alternatives. If it costs us more to do things one way we will seek an alternative. Government intervention in business practice is integral in leading companies away from unsustainable practices.
i just want to ride my motorbikes.
Any rushed "climate fear" legislation be it ETS or otherwise will ultimatley cost me money (that could be spent on more motorbikes) without providing any benefits to me personally. Hey I'm a selfish guy.
I say: invest in electric cars and solar/wind energy so 20 years from now i can still have my electrtic ktm and my electric buell and we can go on about our business.
When it comes down to it all costs will be past on to the consumer/tax payer...the ETS is just a massive missapropriation of OUR money. After all the GOVT wants
to give the 6 bil/mil that they were going to give to families to help take the pressure off the cost of living increase to the coal fire powerplants. Hell theres even
talks of opening more coal powerplants under this scheme.
How about the money coming in from speed cameras goes to fund new wind/solar power plant locations? Its sure as **** not going to better roads as
any new roads are privatised and tolled, and thats what my rediculous registration fees are supposed to be for!
people are so willing to accept that this will have to cost the end user. We are so indifferent and empathetic that we just allow ourselves to be slowly and incrementally ****ed
by the government
All I know is that here in Cana-duh it is -20 something and I can't ride. Can they hurry up with this so called global warming? I say it is a welcome to the drudgery of winter.
I envy you Aussies this time of year.
Do you read your own words? Your own words suggest that there is climate change, but that it's a natural process... so how is climate change a furphy? You accept that it happens :?
There's no question about GW, it's just a matter of whether it's natural, human induced or natural with human forcing.
There's no disagreement about that, just the why.