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Bum-ing the bends…

Discussion in 'New Riders and Riding Tips' at netrider.net.au started by FormerUser1, Jan 31, 2006.

  1. Just to throw another bone into the riding-tech arena....
    (and the reason it's NOT posted under "riding tips", as it could be wrong)

    It will be “old-news” to some, but here it goes…

    The disclaimer right at the start:
    This is NOT…repeat: NOT…recommended for L/P riders, beginners, or anyone not completely confident on their bike/ cornering.

    It also MAINLY/ONLY (not sure yet) applies to the Keith Code/ hook-turn/ square-turn/ call it whatever type of cornering. Things could go pear shaped if applied to the “classic” (symmetrical) type of cornering (but haven't tried it yet).

    I’ve been using this for nearly 2 years (consciously) now and feel very confident with it, way more in control of every little part of a turn, passing through bends quicker (not at a higher speed, but more “fluid” and in total control).
    It’s also helped me with my right-handers, to a point where the tyres show harder wear on the right than the left.

    Assuming the high and deep entry line under brakes, weight is shifted onto the inside-edge of the seat, making the ridge/ edge noticeable (NOT sliding the bum…only “rolling” it onto the edge to make it be felt…with a differently-shaped seat there might be a marginal “creep-across” involved).
    The edge of the seat gives a defining point at the “point-of-tip-in”.
    Immediately after it’s back on the gas, the weight shifting slightly backwards by the accelerating bike. Instead of countering that, I allow myself to “get driven backwards”…MARGINALLY !!, using the weight-shift to have the butt-cheek pressed even harder into the edge of the seat.
    The sensation is immediate…even the tiniest ripple/ stone is noticeable all through the exit, the rear wheel and suspension actions instantly noticeable, feedback loud and clear…. the front end just a tiny bit lighter than normal, giving very similar feedback and is easy to control for any corrections (if needed).
    The tiniest bit of throttle-action gets fed-back into the seat-of-the-pants, literally….and instantly.
    It all comes together as a long, continuous, shallow-arced exit under total “feel and control"…. with a touch of “bum-steering” the rear-end while having full control and feedback from the front.

    Soooo…the use and benefit?
    To me the main benefit is the feed-back and the extra-control gained by using the “bum-sensor-transferring-into-throttle-control” mechanism due to the acute feel of the sharpish edge of the seat. The slight weightshift backwards also creates a slightly wider and more relaxing distance between shoulder and handlebar, allowing for more room to dip shoulder and elbow more if the turn needs to be tightened.

    Potentially the biggest benefit should be to the 4-pot sportsbike rider.
    (just thinking aloud here....)
    Their required use of brakes before entry, little engine-braking and the requirement of very judicious use of the throttle (due to the “snappish-ness” of that kind of engine and amount of hp) during exit…. the gained feel and control would make things easier and more fluid/ less off-on.

    Over the time I’ve been using “the bum-steer” I’ve also come to modify the seat a little, rounding off the front-part of the foam-edges to allow for easier “cheek-roll”, creating a definite/ positive point of where the edging actually “bites”, simply to find “the point-of-engagement” easily and quickly.
    There also haven’t been any downsides to the whole thing yet…

    After talking about it on the last day of the Tassie-Gems tour, Matt (232) seemed to have similar experiences…anything that hasn’t checked or turned sour, mate?

    Throwing it to the wolves now…
  2. I have a question...

    How do you usually weight the footpegs while cornering? Does "bumming" the inside of the seat make it harder/more awkward to put more of your weight on the outside footpeg (which I recall someone on the "rider down on black spur" thread suggested is helpful in extremis)?
  3. AHA! I knew it, you've been pulling your riding style out of your arse!



    I'm not quite sure I get it. You're saying you get better traction feedback through your butt when it's slightly on the inside edge of the seat and back a bit?

    You're deliberately de-weighting the pegs to get more weight on your butt? I can understand how that would get you more feedback, although perhaps at the expense of a bit of the traction you can get from a good steady push on the outside peg.

    I don't really understand it right now but you can be sure I'll be playing with my butt on the way home tonight ;)
  4. Glitch, I think you're giving us a bum steer :LOL:
  5. Consider yourself whupped upside da head, dood. :LOL:
  6. No pronounced/ concious footpeg-weighing...
  7. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: Seems bloody effective though... :grin:

    Feedback in general, whatever happens around the rear-end...the "back" part happenes automatically as the power comes in post-apex, no deliberate 'sliding/ shifting" needed. No de-weighing pegs, only the seat-edge-against-bum used as an extra input/ output device...

    What's new?
    :LOL: :LOL:
  8. Not as yet and it has been of great benefit.....I'm probably getting more off to the edge of the seat but using the same "butt sensor" feel of the turn, and as you side letting the accelerating push you back against the widening edge of the seat.

    Probably the biggest advantage to my riding was the late drop in and cut across hard (Keith Code/ hook-turn/ square-turn/) cornering method has saved my arse a few times (e.g allowed a straight run across molten tar on a ride on a 40 odd degree day) and eveything does feel much more fluid and in control.

    I've just started reading Twist of the Wrist 2 and working on controlling the survival reponses but I'm not getting out on the road enough (3 weeks of commuting is about the sum of it) to fine tune it. So heaps of room for improvement.

    Having been converted, I now get really concerned for people who don't use the late drop in method to corner......especially on the roads with all the surprises (Kinglake, GOR, Reefton) you just can't see what is ahead or about to happen ahead of you so there is no way you can react to it.

    Also Pete, you were riding the right pace in Tassie, didn't really understand what you were asking until a hard and fast ride showed me how not to pace a group. When it is being done right there was nothing to notice, it just worked.
  9. So it's more like you're *concentrating* on your bum a bit more rather than doing very much with it?
  10. Should be able to do both, in fact it would probably happen anyway when you weight the outside ped and lean your body into the turn. Inside edge of the seat would be able the balance point between your torso hanging into the corner and the force on the outside peg. I found I was already pretty much doing it just wasn't focusing on the feedback you were getting.

    Ewwwww stink finger!!!
  11. Hmm, well I love to throw my (vast) weight around in the corners, it gives me more confidence than just pushing the bike around underneath me and sitting still-ish.

    I find the bike feels stickiest and least slippery when my torso and fat belleh are right across on the inside and down as low as comfort and vision through the corner allows. This is usually how I'm riding when I get the pegs down without a panic situation.

    I've got no idea what my arse is up to at that point!

    Since Tassie (I'm sure you know the bit I mean too, coming into Richmond and stuffing about!) I've been playing with getting the inside arse cheek right off the bike if I know the corner's going to be long and tightish - Jesus that lets you tighten your turn up, in fact sometimes it makes me run narrow. :shock: It also makes your turn-in happen a lot quicker if you're already set up well before the corner.

    The trouble is, I feel less in control of the bike if a wobble starts or traction slips for a second - your inside leg is so far from the tank you have to push up on the inside peg to get yourself back on the seat.

    I'm not sure how to relate what I'm doing to what Pete's talking about here. The bum-steer isn't an arse-off approach, it seems to be more about focusing attention on the rear-wheel feedback that comes up through the seat.

    Which makes sense looking at Pete ride - he seems not to move his body much at all, just hits the turn in, drops with the bike, and comes up with it as it exits, whereas I'm behind, climbing around all over the bloody thing and still not keeping up!
  12. Yeah...well...sort of.
    From a certain point onwards though it sorta feels like "bum-steering" a bit though, Paul's right. :)
  13. Interesting. At the SBS session that Keith Code was presenting on the 22nd January, one of the questions that popped up when he was talking about preventing oneself from becoming a direct link between the handlebars and the bike, was what should the rider generally be doing with the lower half of their body.

    Keith seems to have slowly evolved his thinking over the years, and I was quite surprised that he responded with "It generally doesn't matter what you do, so long as you're comfortable with it".

    I think the whole "put weight on the outside peg" thing is more of a conscious link to help you to get your weight off the inside of the bike. The more you're pushing on the outside peg, the more your weight will be transferred to the inside of the bike, assisting it in staying a little more upright for better traction.

    The butt on the seat edge is something I noticed too, and I believe it's just a way in which the rider can more directly link themselves to the bike's body for better feedback.

    Really I just think it's a matter of personal preference. The best thing you can do is find a way to anchor the lower part of your body on the bike so your arms can remain relaxed, and so your body weight is not bouncing about on the bike upsetting the suspension.

    Whether that's achieved by wedging the edge of your seat into your butt, or pushing on the outside peg and locking your outside leg against the tank, or depending on your height, a combination of both, really comes down to rider preference.

    The R1 of mine is just as happy to be "bum steered" as it is "peg steered". I personally favor the peg method because it's a fixed anchor that you can guarantee that your foot is going to be on it, in the right place, every time.
  14. :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: (wipe tears) ...you REALLY want someone to tell ya? :LOL: :LOL:
    Then you're WAAYY to high off the seat (no hang-time required :LOL: )....the point on that really concerns continuous flop-flop bends, R-L-R-L....when squirting out of one bend, flat-lining (Keith Code style, post apex) but still cranked out of the last, setting up for the next, all simultaneously.

    Using just a bit of "lift" (pressure on both pegs) to de-weigh the body sufficiently to bring the bike from , say, right-lean into left-lean just prior to the counter-steer/ tip-in point.
    No off-the-seat-stuff, just enough to slide the bike from one side to the other underneath the body which at the time is still in the process to complete the last bit of the previous turn (weight-positioning-wise).

    There are hardly ever any "wobbles" involved and even if, they'll be on a fairly straight line, no probs.
    Lifting the butt right off the seat changes the CoG too much...
  15. Instead of sliding across the seat, swivel around the tank, that way your leg is tucked in tight against it (I.e., when setting up for a left corner, the left leg and knee are forward on the tank; the right inner thigh is pressed firmly against the right rear of the tank.). pinched the last bit from here
  16. Easy for you fully-faired sportsbikers to say Matty! But righty-o, I'll pop the puppy up on the centrestand and have a crack at that and see if I'm going to be nudging hot cylinder heads if I try it!
  17. matt232, that's pretty much what the Reg Pridmore school of body positioning teaches for budding racers over in the USA.

    The thing with the swivel around tank method is that it only allows for the knee to touch down when at race-track levels of lean, and so it tends to be less popular with the street scrapers.

    On the race track (and even on the road), the swivel around tank method makes a lot of sense IMO. Much more controlled in terms of not allowing bumps and wobbles to upset your seating on the bike.

    I personally find that it is a much more guaranteed way to ensure that you're anchored on the bike firmly when in corners, and it really helps for stable flip-flop transitions as the body never really separates from the bike.
  18. You are not supposed to let yourself slide on the seat from front to back. You are supposed to use your thighs to control body position. Arms and hands are always supposed to be 100% relaxed. All your riding is supposed to be through your waist down and more importantly your toes also.....

    If you want to know more, I am more than willing to explain graphically this saturday night at coffee
  19. ...and once your arse starts smouldering nudging those....you're too far !! :LOL:
  20. You referring to this?
    If yes....I've tried to make clear there that there's NO sliding back/ forth involved...only the SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT use of the existing weight-shift (which is very slim in any case).