Welcome to Netrider ... Connecting Riders!

Interested in talking motorbikes with a terrific community of riders?
Signup (it's quick and free) to join the discussions and access the full suite of tools and information that Netrider has to offer.

VIC Black Spur and 80kmh

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' at netrider.net.au started by cejay, Apr 2, 2007.

  1. Whilst in Marysville we were chatting to one of the staff in my favourite cafe. The local rag is reporting that an 80kmh limited is being proposed for the Black Spur.

    Chatting to Mr and Mrs Scumbag we concluded that this will solve bugger all problems on that road.

    Ridden at the current posted limit, on a dry road and with no random events (people on the wrong side of the road, mud tracks etc..) the road is perfectly safe. An excellent surface, well posted corners, nothing too dramatic, just a nice road.

    However, we (riders) consistently provide the local ambo's, police and tow trucks with business from spring to autumn. So as a group, though we biatch and complain about being unfairly treated and targeted, we are obviously doing something wrong. Just will changing the limit to 80 fix anything?

    I think not. From my experience, the people who exceed the limit on this road do so by a huge margin. Are these the people crashing though? We rarely find out the true cause of accidents and sometimes look for ways to blame everyone other than the rider.

    If we are not to find ourselves where every road we ride is restricted to 80kmh or less with police hiding behind trees with speed guns and the like, we have to work out something.

    I avoid the spur during the peak periods to avoid the people who go past at unbelievable speeds or overtake on blind corners but ride it when I can. At 100kmh I can still enjoy the ride, still get that rush and buzz from doing some great corners at a reasonable speed and know that I'm not going to get done for anything. Soon even that pleasure will be gone.


     
     Top
  2. Must say, I'm with you, cejay. Both the spurs are thoroughly enjoyable without exceeding the limit (or at least not excessively). Most of the corners can't be taken at speeds over 100km/h anyway, so really getting busted for speeding means you were being a duffer and hooning down the straights. But decreasing it to 80km/h would certainly limit the fun factor a bit.

    Highly doubt it'll have any effect on the motorcycle (or car/truck) road toll. Only thing that would really improve that would be driver education.
     
     Top
  3. Macquarie Pass up here is similarly interesting, with an already posted limit of 60KMH. There are some short straights and longer 'strings' of open corners where you can go very quickly, but overall you can have a ball riding it at something over 60 but below insane.

    Of the four people who have been killed on its overall length over the last two years, two have been hit by trucks or cars that were on the wrong side of the road, and two at the same place just simply going too fast into a blind dropping lefthander over a railway bridge...
     
     Top
  4. Gawd, I hope they don't do 60kmh! Even my car does the spur at 60kmh with little body roll!

    AFAIK, this is not a certainty. But they did it on the GOR and others, so it if not now, then soon.

    What really got me thinking about this was the irony of discussing it in Marysville and then sitting in traffic for 20minutes and passing the car and what looked like 2 bikes involved in an accident not more than an hour later.

    I am no angel, enjoy going quick and think that corners and bikes are made for each other. But the Spur can be entertaining at legal (or just above) speeds.
     
     Top
  5. It would change nothing.

    Lowering the speed limit would just be yet another pointless feel-good political exercise in futility. For the most part people already set a safe speed for themselves. Those that currently exceed the speed limit pay it no heed anyway. 80kph would change nothing for them.

    Are the bulk of accidents happening in the 80-100kph speed bracket currently? Under what circumstances? I would have thought that most accidents are occurring at around 80kph anyway through corners.
     
     Top
  6. My point exactly.
     
     Top
  7. I was up at my folks over the weekend and saw the article in the "Triangle news", the local rag if you could call it that. It was seeking public opinion on the proposal that the spur be reduced to 80k all the way.

    Now im not too sure if theres any other public sectors will protest this but it seems inevitable that there will be an overwelming response from 'the public' in agreement to this. If you want to express your opinion you can drop an e-mail to blackspur@roads.vic.gov.au. Sorry the details are a bit sketchy but thats all I wrote down.
     
     Top
  8. i was wondering, is that speed limit for real. 100 kmh in twist lol. however there are straight lines, i guess it justify.
     
     Top
  9. Most of the corners on the Spur can be done at 100kmh. The quicker guys can ride through much quicker than that, problem being if anything goes wrong, the penalty is quite severe.
     
     Top
  10. definitely the marysville to warburton via lake mountain is tighter
     
     Top
  11. I cant seem to get through the spur at a decent speed close to 100km/h but its because i get stuck behind BAM-BAM on his jumbo Jet of a bike and it doesnt seem to do more than 90 flat out, or maybe he just cant ride it ?

    I dont think lowering the limit will change anything, i see guys going 200+ on parts, so the have no respect for the posted limits anyway.

    Even if they posted the spur at 150km/h its really only the bikes that would get that much out of its cos cars barely get to 100km/h on most parts and when they do they look out of control.......

    It wont change a thing, but maybe going riding without BAM-BAM might increase my enjoyment of the road and Im sure my bike would appreciate being able to get out of 2nd gear.
     
     Top
  12. Black spur is a great road. Everyone has a story to tell about that road. 80km/h is just unreasonable, its a motorcyclist road and everyone knows that. People do get hurt, crash etc. But as others have said the negative 20km/h wouldnt make much difference. Accidents usually happen due to hazzard other then riders (other drivers/dirt/gravel,HUGE log trucks).

    80km/hr wont deter people. They will still go to the spur, and ride at speed that they usually do.
    If they then decide to have speed cameras up there, i personally think it will cause more harm then good. Its a distraction that can cause harm, also there are alot of people that ride up at the spur that have no rego/licence/number plate. And there gonna do a runner.

    80km/hr BIG NO NO. imho
     
     Top

  13. sorry to hold you up there buddy...next time we go i will try to shift into 3rd and will do my best not to hold you up too badly...I'm still learning and one day hope i have leet motorbiking skills like you... :cheeky:
     
     Top
  14. Two seperate accidents, plus another on the Reefton.
    The one you saw was a bike collided with a 4wd, all of the indicators pointed to the rider running wide, although it's unconfirmed.
    The push for lower speed limits will be most likely coming from the locals and visiting road users making complaints, rather than the policy makers.
    However, they will need to be seen to be doing something, so considering the recent blitz had little impact, I'd expect they'll be looking for a cheaper, longer term answer.
    Regardless of whether it will work or not, gotta keep the voters happy.
    I expect there will be another blitz this weekend, and over the winter they'll go ahead with lowering the speed limits before next season.
    I doubt this will achieve a hell of a lot.
    Have to wait and see.

    Scheff

    Oh, and Natta, i haven't seen a lot of bikes without reg plates up there, only one. :wink:
     
     Top
  15. I saw the 4wd with the dented windscreen. Looked painful.
     
     Top
  16. Hahaha. I followed BAM-BAM through Woodsy's run somewhere out the back of Lang Lang and he was going way over that speed.

    Anyhoo, perhaps the thinking is that if they limit the speed so they can book over 80 it will slow down the less skilled amongst us trying to keep up with the rest. In any case I think also its an inevitablity that the spurs will get an 80 before long. I agree it will not help the crash rate much because I think its not so much speed as inexperience that is behind a good amount of spurs offs , but from the ambo and police view what are they to do ? Like the rest of the world everyone is looking for a magic button to immediatly solve a problem. Actually subsidising training for high speed handling is way too long term for a problem they want to fix now, not to mention that training people to ride skilffuly at high speed goes against the speed kills mantra.

    The Christmas Hills road was also 100 once and its way faster than the spurs.
     
     Top
  17. Geez, we're pretty lucky here. Our good run through the hills is pretty much all 100kmh, and there's never cops out there, or many cars. I've not heard of any fatalities except being told during my L's about a bloke who leaned over the centre line on a r/h bend and got cleaned up by a 4x4.

    Just gotta watch out for packs of cyclists (Ask wedge about it)
     
     Top
  18. Hmmm. Been thinking about the issue of single-vehicle bike accidents.

    It seems to me that riders can be split into 3 main groups.

    Beginners & The Timid

    These are the riders who in general have little real concept of what their bike can do. They generally ride around in fear of the bike not being able to negotiate some corner without the tyres slipping out. The fear of crashing is immense, it destroys rhythm, and such riders will often stand a bike up and run straight on. The big thing in their favor is that corner speeds are typically quite low, so even when they do crash it's usually at a fairly low speed by the time that the off occurs, and so will often survive the incident.

    Intermediate to Experienced

    Meaning riders with >100hrs of riding experience and who are starting to feel like they're getting the hang of this riding gig, or they may even be riders who have been riding for 20 years.

    I feel that this is the most dangerous group, at least in terms of likelihood of death when something goes wrong. I also think that it's contentious to say it, but I feel that the majority of riders fall into this group. When riding by themselves they rarely have any issues at all and generally ride within their limits. In group ride scenarios is when the dangers arise, when they start to push their limits to keep up, keep ahead, or catch up, to someone else.

    Whether due to confidence, ego, momentary red-mist, or whatever, this type of rider has the ability to enter a corner at moderate/high speeds but since they have so rarely pushed the limits on their own (whether public road or on a race-track), may find themselves in deep trouble and lacking the skills to cope with sudden corner changes. They may know the theory of what is the correct thing to do, but not having practised it regularly, still do the wrong thing and exit into the scenery at high speed, or lock up the wheels and highside. Since the speeds are higher, and I must say that quite often only rudimentary protective gear is being worn as befits their usual riding style, crashes are fairly serious affairs.

    Road Scratchers and Track Day Junkies

    These are the guys who push their own limits quite regularly, most typically on the race track in a safe environment, but probably just as often learned their trade on the public road with sufficient discipline to gradually gain experience and build up to it, rather than attempt to scrape the pegs/knees when this isn't what they regularly do. Such riders typically have a history of numerous crashes early on as they pushed their limits (see group above), but either through luck or location (racetrack) have survived largely uninjured.

    Such riders tend to crash far less often, and the reason being is that while riding very quickly, they are often riding below their own limits, and their bike's limits, and when things do start to go wrong they have practised the skills required to deal with difficult situations and so can often get themselves out of a pickle. When these guys do crash, it's usually due to abnormal/unexpected road conditions (oil, water, diesel, gravel, etc), and usually a low-side. Oddly enough, since these guys typically wear full protective gear and low-side and slide, they tend to be travelling at a slower speed by the time they actually reach the scenery, and my perception is that the severity of the accident is often less than the second group as a result.

    The above could all be a total fanciful farce, but it's my 2c on the matter.
     
     Top
  19. Who knows Stew, but seeing as we're not allowed to discuss such events on NR, we're unlikely to find out.

    The actual point I was making was twofold.

    #1 At the posted legal speed, I think a serious accident is less likely to occur.

    #2 If you accept point #1, reducing the speed limit will have absolutely zero effect on the weekly accident rate.

    It would be interesting to know the breakdown of the accident rates, as this might prove your theory correct.

    Having said that, whilst I accept your point about the experienced riders, they still crash and hurt themselves very badly.

    I can only imagine how demoralising it is to be either a policeman or ambo at the these (all too) frequent events. Whatever you think about the police, spending your Saturdays and Sundays on the Spur picking the pieces up must take it out of you.

    BTW, I've proven how totally easy it is to crash on a perfectly straight (though brilliantly slippery and lethal) road, so I'm not trying to be holier than thou. Just makes you think when you ride past people who've might have had something happen that's changed their lives forever.
     
     Top
  20. Over policing of our motorcycling roads could actually have an opposite effect.
    Encouraging more riders to take their plates off or use any number of techniques to avoid being detected and caught.

    Worth noting was the police presence in and around Healesville on the weekend. Marked, unmarked + BMW bike.

    The marked car was sitting at Fernshaw when the rider came to grief.
    When there is a blitz on, or the po-po are working the Spur, word gets around fairly quickly, and things go quiet until they leave again.
    Lowering the speed limit wont alter that.

    Scheff
     
     Top