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Apprenticeship shortfalls

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by E2W, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. Scary indeed!
    This is what's going to happen though if TAFE loses its funding. Easy money for he RTOs
  2. im not surprised, its not just in that area too. Ive done plenty of tafe courses that basically has open book or someone helping you derive the right answer....................you get judged as competent or not competent. What rubbish.
  3. so i can already change oil and air filters and replace tyre can somebody give me a bit of paper that says i'm TQ
  4. Another big rip off we can't even train our own kids properly .
    In 3 years time we will be importing trades people from other country's to cover the short fall .
  5. we already are
  6. @rat man407

    yes mate I know we are :) . but in coming years we will be still doing it and have young Australians on the dole . its just F##king incompetence .

    something like this needs an independent body to oversee it ..Power corrupts : absolute power corrupts absolutely
  7. Various state governments of differing varieties closing technical schools and shelving apprentice programs have been the start of the rot. Now cuts to vocational education programs and the like have further eroded this.
    The problem we have in Australia is a lack of foresight in order to save a dollar.
  8. I have some experience or knowledge in this area, and yeah quite a chunk of it is a rort. Especially in Hospitality, where a Food handlers or Food safety Supervisors Cert. are mostly "guided", to ensure they get the Government Cash for training you.

    If you think there is something fishy, inform the appropriate Ombudsman/Organisation.
  9. This 'tick and flick' system's been the norm since the CBT system was introduced in the early 90's. Perhaps there should be more emphasis put on TAFE teachers having teaching qualifications rather than just a Cert IV in Training and Assessment.
  10. When all else fails, blame the government.
    Time to go back to basics guys.
    RTO's only cover off the basics of each year level of trade qualifications and that all they can realistically do. When I did my apprenticeship as a fitter and turner it was with the SEC in the power station workshops. The variety of equipment was amazing, horizontal and vertical boring machines, cylindrical grinders, shapers, milling machines, cnc machines and the biggest variety of lathes you've ever seen. As a 4th year apprentice i was machining bearing journals on the turbine rotors on the supposedly biggest lathe in the southern hemisphere. This thing was approx 15 meters long with a chuck about 2m in diameter, absolutely massive. And when I finished my schooling I walked out with the same certificate as a mate of mine who worked in a workshop with one lathe and a drill press.
    The point I'm trying to make is it's up to the bosses the give these young blokes a go. Apprentices usually end up doing the work the tradies don't want to do, all the shit jobs and even sweeping the floor and cleaning. Some of these guys need to realise that taking on an apprentice is to 'train' them, to actually work with them and show them how to learn their trade and not just send them off to trade school to learn their stuff. If you want good apprentices, don't take shortcuts and give them all the shit work. Put them with your best tradie and let then learn from them. If kids are left on their own they will develop bad habits that will continue throughout their career, and there lies the reason behind dodgy poor quality workshops.
  11. Yup, my old man [ may he RIP ] was an old school mechanic, when he was in his 40's put himself through UNI to get a teaching degree so he could apply and become a TAFE teacher in Automotive and he loved it, right up to the 'tick and flick' system was introduced.. he stuck with it for a few years before he gave it up in disgust at the level of competence of students he HAD to pass,
    It also didn't sit well with him that a lot of new Auto teachers coming in, weren't even trade qualified !

    As for my younger brother and I ? Once we showed some interest in the trade we where DOOMED lol . Our normal w/ends became, helping Dad with his hobby .. rebuilding anything with 4 wheels , Minis / Landrovers / Rover 3500's , plus spare motors for friends [ when we cleaned up the garage after his passing we found 3 mini 1800 cooperS motors and 6 holden reds that we helped rebuild back in the 80's ](*,) :rofl:

    Today's problems were getting IMO, I think employers have done a lot to contribute to the 'lack' of trade qualified/experienced mechanics in all disciplines ( Petrol/Diesel/Mbike etc ) By putting unqualified/inexperienced people in charge, that just don't know if the work going out the door is correct or not.
  12. In our w/shop everyone cleans up their own mess ( and some can be doozies lol )
    We try to put the Apprentices onto the rebuild and refurbs, but in reality they end up more often than not doing the PD's etc. which is a problem and we know it.
    So ALL our Apprentices are on a rotation with myself and the other Field service guys to get out of the w/shop and into the real 'think on your feet world' Happily they all have the same comment when back in the w/shop after a week away
    Nothing teaches them quicker on how improvise or repair machinery when it's pouring and your knee deep in mud working on a 30tonne excavator that has thrown a track or has lost all Hyd functions ! =D> :angel:
  13. In my industry this has been going on for many, many years. Part of the reasoning is not many apprentices are coming through the system as there once was and the imported tradespeople simply work significantly harder as they have much more to lose than a local person.

    Everyone seeks to blame someone else for the issue. If you as an employer know that the RTO isn't performing as they should, do something about it. Now I know for a fact that my apprentice learns significantly more on the job than at trade school, so I never expect him to come back from school having learnt something new or innovative. This is why I probably push him pretty hard and expect a fair bit from his quality and performance.
    Sure he's felt pressured etc, but the way I explain it to him is I'd rather he makes the mistakes as an apprentice because no one will accept them as a tradie. Plus it probably has a little to do with my pride, I know he will leave here one day and I want his next employer to think highly of him.

    This is a thorn in my side! I know there is a 'teacher' training my apprentice who is not even a trained trades person in any field let alone what he is teaching!

    I recognised 19 years ago that schooling had it's shortfalls even as a first year apprentice. Now all these years later I have put my hand up to consult the training board on current process' and formulating a training package that is suitable for the industry now, not twenty years ago.

    Now the flip side...How many times do your hear or read 'I don't want the apprentice on my bike'. Well you're also contributing to the issue, without working on bikes including your bike how do you expect them to learn? Are you the one who is whinging about lack of skilled trades people?

    Vicious circle...
  14. I've briefly taught electrical apprentices (not even for a week) at Victec.. Actually I shouldn't say I "taught" them, rather I was a nanny to these kids who acted like a bunch of baboons. I come back after lunch, walls punched in, computers power supplies blown after being switched from 250v to 110v, shorting out powerpoints....

    F*&^ that, rather be teaching people who WANT to learn, so I left. It was the same shit when I was at trade school. The apprentices see it as paid time to f*ck around, teacher couldn't care less.. What do you expect?
  15. I think there's also an element resulting from the changes in employment practices over the past 30 years or so. When a significant proportion of tradies are independent contractors (or nearly all in some trades I believe), who is going to take on apprentices? The individual contractors can't and the companies who employ the contractors won't.

    Although it's not an apprenticeship issue as such it was a phenomenon I noticed in the transport industry. I've sat in many meetings where the management of the big transport companies have bellyached about not being able to get good drivers any more. Most of the time I just wanted to pick them up by the shirtfronts and yell "The reason you can't get good drivers any more, you fucking parasites, is because you haven't fucking made any for the last 25 years. Shuffling off responsibility for maintenance, training, insurance, super etc onto your workforce might have looked like a good way to increase your profits but it's really come back to bite you on the fat fucking arses hasn't it? Fucking short termism." Or words to that effect.

    With minor variations I suspect it could be applied to many industries.
  16. nobody wants to wear the cost. Proper schooling costs money, manufacturer training costs money even though it benefits workshops/dealers. Pumping apprentices through on fastrack or tick and flick or whatever name you like makes companies money, for them to take time and learn properly doesn't please shareholders.
  17. Why invest the money training people when its cheaper to poach people trained by your competitors once they've qualified?

    Why invest the money training people when they are just going to the poached by your competitors upon completion?

    It's about externalisation of costs and competitive advantage... except that the race to the bottom itself constitutes a systemic risk.

    But the systemic risk doesn't count in terms of competitive advantage and so the shareholders are blind to it.

    Rational actors maximising profit without regard to how their activities affect the social totality in the final analysis are simply not acting rationally (in the final analysis).

    Fuck the shareholders. They are leaches. The entire system needs to be changed.
  18. The whole point of trade school is to getbout of it asap.. Its a crap system where the teachers have no idea what they are teaching (no joke. We just ignore them now as they have tried to teach us so many wrong things, if we dont know something we ask each other cause we are more likely to get the correct answer) my employer knows how crap it is. But there is no other option.
  19. It's a damn shame.
    I had an apprenticeship 2 years ago in landscaping. Started off working 12 hour days for a month, then got offered the apprenticeship. Three months later, I was out the door. Apparently I "wasn't trying hard enough" and made 2 mistakes, which, 1 I caught before it became an issue and fixed up, and even TOLD the boss about how I changed it up. He used that to justify my sacking.

    I was left by myself almost every day with shit jobs (cleaning pavers, etc) and when someone else was there, I asked and never was shown how to do something.

    My point is, it just seems a massive waste to offer someone an apprenticeship just for the purpose of cheap labour. I sure as shit don't blame myself, I did everything I could, asked for help if I couldn't and stayed back for hours to see jobs done. Only to be sacked. I was heartbroken and since, don't see a career in what I once loved doing.

    Delegation is an absolute biatch, and that'll be the downfall of our society. How long will it last?