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N/A | National An alternative to fines...

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by ajrider, Jun 29, 2015.

  1. The government seems to be sending out survey after surveys to see whether or not their campaigns are having an impact.

    From my perspective fines are not working (except for a revenue raising excersize - they appear to be working well there). They're more a deterrent for people to avoid the police, watch out for speed camera's and try and stay below the limit than they are to actually learn more and improving the quality of drivers on our roads.

    I was thinking about this over the weekend (because I tend to think too much), and I was wondering - why not have alternative options for drivers. Instead of fining drivers, let them put the money to an advanced driving course, and use the receipt from that to send off with their payment return instead.

    People need to learn the dangers of texting, tailgating, etc and learn to be more defensive drivers. A 30 second add campaign, or a few hundred dollars hit to the hip wallet doesn't achieve this. But spending 1 on 1 time with instructors in cars, going through various simulations could have a far better chance - especially for those who have accidents not because they're driving like hoons, but because they're just naive about what's happening around them.

    What do the riders here think? Would you prefer to see more people swapping their fines for defensive / advanced driving courses, and do you think it would help to improve the quality of drivers on our roads more than fines?
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Agree, something else needs to be done. Perhaps instant loss of license and impound of car for mobile phone use and drink driving?
  3. If they do this for drivers, they'll certainly also do it for motorcyclists. Just sayin.
    I dunno. You may find yourself sitting through endless photos of bones poking through skin with 'counsellors' droning 'don't speed, m'kay...?'. I guess if that's enough for someone to hang up the leathers, maybe they should anyway.
    If they actually taught 4Wdrivers how not to run wide on corners, or how much longer it takes to react when you're even a little bit drunk, then it might have some benefits.
    I don't believe that deterrence is all that effective for serious offenders anyway, so retraining may be the next step.
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Definatly see your point there. download (1).
    Law changes would effect all road users Id imagine. Theyd probably find another way to target bike riders
  5. That was more the idea, but I was more focused on the people who have no clue on the roads. They've only being taught by their parents who also had no clue, and they in turn will be teaching their children the same bad habits. The cycle doesn't end. Tailgaters breed tailgaters. Corner cutters breed corner cutters, people who don't know how to use round abouts correctly breed... well, you get the idea.

    There are no doubt always going to be a percentage of idiots on our roads no matter what we do - but many of the bad drivers I've been in contact with aren't being deliberate - they just haven't had the right training, and sadly don't see the need for propper training. However given the right 'encouragement' I think that many of them would learn one or two new things that would improve their driving, and if the difference was between that and paying fines, it might be enough of an incentive.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Fines are one of the worst punishments because they are not equal to the fined. Mr Ferrari Corporate Executive pays a $600 fine from small change. Working, mortgaged, 3 kid dad, falcon driver has to put off getting kids clothing. There is no way that can be considered equitable.

    The drink driving laws in Victoria are fairly harsh anyway and do encompass some of the re-training suggested by ajriderajrider. You have to go on a course about drinking and driving. You have a fine. You need to convince a magistrate of your reformed ways before you can recover your license and you have a 2 years compulsory interlock on your vehicle or vehicles charged at $150/month.

    As a expansion on ajrider's comments I have proposed this in the past as my plan if I were King. :) The Motorcycle Levy structure would be expanded to all licence holders. The levy cost would go up each year by lets say 30%. If you took advanced driver/rider training in that 12 months the Levy would be refunded to you to assist in paying for it and the Levy cost would reset to it's base level. The result is a driving/riding community updating their skills in an ongoing basis.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. I think there is a funding solution sitting there in plain view, in Victoria at least. All the money that TAC spend on media advertising, and on corporate sponsorship, could be used instead for re-training. Instead of the highly inefficient delivery mechanism of mass media, let them target proven offenders.
    And if they stopped spending money in the court system trying to undermine the no-fault system, there's be even more cash available.
    and if they stopped paying the government a cash dividend...
    • Like Like x 4
  8. There is only one clear option: capital punishment. Also, in the interest of efficiency, police should be authorised to carry it out on the spot.

    I really think the insurance and road safety elements of it should be split up, with the former funded by the levy and the latter coming from government coffers.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. You could also argue that fine revenue should fund road safety instead of consolidated revenue.
    There is a logical and philosophical problem with any system in which the beneficiary of punishments levied is the authority that applies it.
    There is an obvious disincentive to solve the original problem. Re-offenders are profitable.
    Maybe that's too big for this discussion.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Probably is a bit big, yeah.

    The TAC thing is somewhat simpler, and politically easier than getting the government to surrender a significant revenue stream after the feds have cut billions of dollars of funding and during tricky economic times.
  11. Hey, CJ introduced 'if I were king', I'm just running with it. ;)
    The other big question for me, is who does/designs the training? Psychologists or someone with hands on road skills?
    This might rile a few people, but I think that emergency services people - including police - are probably the best qualified. Funding issues aside.
  12. Believe it or not but this is hazzard perception and the most valuable skill required to drive safely. I believe that this is the primary reason for enforcement besides revenue and speed is an excuse to test hazzard perception.

    This message though gets lost in various governments and doesn't reach rank and file. In NSW the no covert camera system works well. People with poor hazzard perception will lose their license, while observant speeders get away with it almost all the time.

    Victoria seems not to be aware of this and think speed enforcement is to stop people speeding.

    I do like the fine money can go to advanced courses idea though.
    • Informative Informative x 2
  13. I believe everyone should experience some sort of simulator or something that puts them in our POV or a truck drivers or a cyclist etc. just to give them an idea of the shit we see all the time.
    Secondly, I reckon defensive would be great but agree they would make us participate in the same. I remember when I learnt to drive with my old man and the third or fourth time id ever been on a dirt road he would slow me down to a "controllable" speed and slam the handbrake on. Good way to learn.
    Or others he would do in the paddocks were to distract me at slow speeds to show how dangerous it is.
  14. Is that much of a problem though? I mean, I'd love to have the choice if I got a fine between paying the fine, or paying that money to do an advanced riding course.

    Indeed. Paddocks are great for both doing surprises and teaching distraction lessons. It seems that making a mistake (safely) can be one of the best ways to learn - but only if you are 'wired' that way. One issue we face is that there are many drivers who make the same mistakes repeatedly and never learn from their own mistakes. How many times have you heard "The car in front braked too quickly" :banghead:
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Not sure if it is still their view but at one stage VicRoads did not endorse driver training as it was seen to create problems.

    I think there was some vague research which showed if you gave drivers training, their skills improved and they drove faster so eventually when they crashed it was at higher speed.

    VicRoads at one stage seemed to use this to be suspicious of all forms of training and by extension to rider training even though the original research was only in relation to drivers. I suspect also the training involved was more like high speed training rather than the sort of advanced training given by the likes of HART and Stay Upright.
  16. nb. This was in relation to young novice drivers only, and they still endorse this view. Refer to their website; Vicroads Fact Sheet 4.

    Skill based driver training
    These programs predominantly involve driving on off-road tracks or circuits, and may also include the provision of information about traffic law, the risks of crashing and sometimes some emergency braking exercises.

    What does the evidence show?
    1. Systematic evaluations of driving skill based programs have all concluded that the programs have little or no positive effect on the road safety behavior of the young people who participate in them.
    Source: The Effectiveness of Driver Training as a Road Safety Measure, Trends in Driver Training and Do Driver Training Programs Reduce Accidents & Traffic Violations

    2. Some off-road programs for novice drivers, especially those that include skid control training were found to either have no positive effect, or in some cases, have negative effects on those who completed them.
    Source: Graduated Driver Licensing Research, 2010-Present

    3. Even as places for learners to master basic skills, research suggests that the best learning environment for the beginning driver is the real road system under the supervision of an experienced driver or instructor.
    Source: RACV Report 01/03

    Why doesn't it work

    These programs mainly focus on driving skills. While drivers need to master basic car control skills this occurs relatively quickly. Providing too much emphasis on driving skills does not create better safety outcomes. It can lead to an increase in risky behaviours due to the perception among these young people that they are more skilled. One likely reason why these approaches are ineffective is that some of the young drivers who complete these programs feel like they were more skilled drivers than they had been previously. As a result, their confidence and level of risk taking as a driver increases leading to a greater involvement in crashes. This is especially the case for young male drivers.

    Off-road driving programs are likely to be particularly unhelpful for higher risk groups, like young male offenders, and these groups should not be encouraged or required to attend such programs. While there might be some value in utilizing off-road facilities for learners who are in the first stage of learning to drive, it can just as safely occur in an appropriate on-road environment i.e. new housing estates, industrial estates on the weekend.

    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Training to improve basic skills is good for individuals but is not likely to achieve much in terms of reducing the consequences of poor decisions ... ye canna put old heads on young shoulders ... or on old shoulders for that matter =D
  18. Just my 2 cents but as a truck driver and bike rider i honestly think all the training in the world wont change peoples attitudes to their felllow man.
    More and more people are driving along in there own little techno bubbles of phones, gps, and the lack of outside sound coming in through the closed window of the modern car.

    Longer hours at work, traffic congestion from buthole to breakfast, fatigue and just plain arrogance fill our roads with people who just dont want to be there and are looking for the fastest way from a to b.
    More and more the way increased traffic congestion makes being an effective courier/truck driver harder is pushing into other busineses and industries unable to move freight or personel in a suitable time frame to stay profitable and or viable.

    Fines hurt for a bit but once its paid your just going back into the same conditions that put you there in the first place.
    Why not focus on better road planning, enforced lane postioning(stay left etc), better traffic flow by allowing less access to major roads from minor streets.

    I just dont think that fines and or training will change human behaviour and how we're feeling on the day anywhere near to what superior well planned infrastructure on a city level would do.

    I know it seems a different point of view and almost off topic to posts above but it just seems that while fines have always been around its the people that are different and understanding why might be the answer.
  19. Ajrider - The speeding fines aren't working, because what people are being asked to do is unreasonable, simple as that.
  20. fines only hurt part of the population... mainly those on lower incomes (but even then, long payment plans are not that bad)

    losing licence also doesn't deter some people.. take away their right to a licence for 10 years, and they'll go "bugger it, i'll drive anyway"
    that goes equally for low and high income population

    I reckon having really boring long lectures (rather than training), that only run at really inconvenient times during working hours, to inconvenience people who work.
    the more highly paid they are, the more inconvenient it should be for them :)

    would it be enough disincentive to getting caught? maybe :)
    as for speeding... time and place.. you can't get caught if there is no cop or camera :)