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AMCN and the capacity debate

Discussion in 'General Motorcycling Discussion' started by pro-pilot, May 31, 2007.

  1. Well to see feedback again in AMCN this week, with the points raised on how really much of a ho ha there is with effect of learning and riding a big bike straight up is over capping people on a 250cc.

    The key, and stress key factors in all self-generated motorcycle operator deaths and injury is riding outside your abilities and as quoted from AMCN "young person ego syndrome".

    Another good point raised is that one should always have equipment that is more capable than themselves, especially when it comes to handling and road dynamics.

    As we have seen a spate of 250cc learners done for hoon law infractions, and numbers of cage drivers pumping mum's astra to 160kph down suburban roads. Vehicle power and saftey, all comes down to the rider. Hell you could done for hoon laws on a scooter in the right speed zone.

    As far as causing accidents, 250 or 1000. The damage at legal road speed is identical. If anything speed is the critical factor in damage. (Basic physics, E=M*(V*V). Hence, double the speed, quadruple the energy of impact.

    Before one says, yeah but a 1000cc can do 250kph +. Remember, we are taking about machines in the hands of reasonable riders, obeying the law. If not, then all is pretty academic!
  2. Acceleration is more important than speed (to paraphrase Einstein) in this equation: it's not so much top speed as how quickly you can get to a high speed that makes a bigger bike more dangerous in the hands of a reckless person. And limiting the discussion to non-reckless, law-abiding people is defining it into meaninglessness in terms of road safety, IMO.
  3. well, if you are expanding the discussion to reckless and non-law abiding people, all laws are then moot anyway.

    Let pack a assualt rifle and a cpl of IED's on the roadside!

    Welcome to Iraq! :LOL:
  4. Actually its deceleration that thats more important than speed. When they hit a solid object both bikes will stop in exactly the same distance, only the faster one will dissipate more energy in doing so, (assuming roughly similar mass). Unfortunately this will be equally true for the decelerating rider and his internal organs.
  5. Kinetic energy is actually equal to (1/2)*m*v^2 (you forgot the half)

    And I agree with the point above, it's more to do with the acceleration... That said, even LAM bikes accelerate a lot faster then your average car...
  6. This hits the nail on the head IMO about any form of motor vehicle accident. It all comes down to the operator. I believe that every vehicle incident is avoidable. Period. There is always a way to avoid crashes, and I think that responsibility for any of it can be shared equally amongst all parties involved.

    Young, inexperienced riders and drivers (like myself) don't need restrictions on time of day they can drive, passenger restrictions, power restrictions etc etc. All these are irrelevant when it is the driver's mentality that affects how well they do/don't drive. And that is what needs to be addressed to curb the road carnage we're always seeing.

    That said, I'm yet to see anyone come up with an effective way of doing so. I've taken RACT's "low risk driving course" (not defensive driving), and that gave me a better scope on what to look out for, and what not to do.
  7. Deceleration is just acceleration in the opposite direction :p

    That said, I think Bravus was more implying that the increase in acceleration between a two-fiddy and a litre bike is more likely to get someone in a situation, without knowning what to do about it.

    Force = mass * acceleration, so a faster object will have a greater acceleration when compared to a slower one if you fix the end speeds (zero) and the time...
  8. So pro pilot, are you a journo? You seem to like asking questions on this subject? If so that's cool, it just would b nice to know.

    Me I can ride a 1,000cc as I am a legend and the most awesome rider since Rossi. The sooner we move to LAMs the better, power to weight ratios are more important than outright CCs. Don't give learners CBR1000RR's but a F650 would be OK I reckon. But hey what do I know? :wink:

    What happened to the mighty 2007 GT250R?
  9. This is one of the most rediculos statments I have seen on these board ever.

    We don't allow people to get there hands on weapons in Australia because it makes life harder on the F'wits who will go shooting up universities. We don't allow newbs to ride weapons because they are more likely to F#$k up. And people can get around both of these laws if they try hard enough.

    The point is to stop the law abiding ones from accidently killing themselves because they make a stupid mistake through over confidence and lack of skill.

    There is an other part of the equation.
    While you are getting your skillls up, small imperfections in your throtal control can leave you compleatly up the crapper on a big bike, but on a small bike are more likely to leave you thinking, ohhh that could have gone bad.

    Once you have the skills to control the bike with greater skill and confidence you are better positioned to handle the right hand control.
    This still wont stop people going at 150 down suburban streets and binning it when they panic at the sight of a car. But it will decrease teh number of slip ups that cause them to accidently light up the rear or lift the nose because they were just a tad brutal with the right hand.
  10. yep we have all done it. :oops: :oops:
  11. So what you really want when you're learning is a bike with progressive throttle and brakes and a powerband that doesn't kick in with a rush. Lots of big bikes meet these criteria, some small bikes don't.

    I would have thought that accidentally lighting up the rear or lifting the nose under such circumstances constitutes a learning experience and is not necessarily something to be discouraged.
  12. Yep, lately too........... :p

    New bike + Fuel injection + bump in road + inexperience on said bike = (nearly) an oopsie! :evil:

    I would suggest that whether "lighting up" constitutes a learning experience or becomes an accident depends on the outcome!

    My 2c
  13. You are right. You can't carry an "effective" IED in anything smaller than a Gearsack! :p
    Claymores are however "man portable".....
  14. And a lot easier, you don't have to hang around waiting to get caught. :cool:
  15. Ok, if you want small, but want to do more than knock a few toes off, may I suggest a M2A4 'bouncing betty'? you get to look it in the eye before it knocks your head off.
  16. Well, the comment was nothing to do with weapons but with the fact that if people don't go nuts and act irresponsibly the case for an incident occuring is somewhat agnostic of what size machine you are driving or riding.

    As for throttle mistakes, give me a break! I have owned close to 15 bikes in my time and never a 250 (though I have ridden ones from time to time). Many others I have know and ridden with over the years the same.
    I am definately not a proffesional rider, but have always stayed within my limits on the road (track is another matter :grin: ). Thus far has served me well.

    There is always the potential to slip up and drive into a wall or something. But some decent common sense, coupled with good training and respecting your limits will limit self-inflicted causes of injury and fatality.

    Having said this I do appreciate that others will feel that larger machines hold the holy grail or rite of passage.


    this lady lost throttle control, in a toyota echo!

    Someones inability to develop geo-spacial control (yes there are some who should never get behind a wheel or handlebars) and other road hazards are outside the scope of this argument.
  17. Surely a lot of it comes down to age and hormones? When I was a lad (a long long time ago, when dinosaurs roamed the earth), I was pretty keen to show all and sundry how totally awesome a rider I was. I had 2 very serious accidents and 1 not so serious accidents. All done because I was trying to show off and be a hero. Unfortunately hitting a tree at a (conservative estimate) 80kmh does nothing for your street cred, especially when you do it in front a bunch of (now) terrified school girls.

    I shudder at the thought of an 18 yo with a new R1 showing off to his mates, when it's his 1st bike. With the only legal requirement being registration, he won't even be insured.

    Modern 250's are pretty good bikes, they stop and handle according to their performance. LAM's are pretty tame bikes too, so it's not like their cutting edge brakes and suspension.

    I don't see the benefit in people having litre class bikes as their first bike, regardless of how good they stop and go around corners.
  18. WTF? A properly set up claymore will kill / disable a section of troops...
    Depends who sets it up.... and how good the "kill zone" is. :cool:

  19. O.K i'll try to be a little more plane in my coments.
    I understand your coment had little to do with guns.
    It had to do with the fact that the law wont stop the idiots.
    And my reply was agreeying but identifying that it does make it harder for the casual idiot (As opposed the the dedicated Idiot) and protects the plainly inexperianced from the foolishness

    As for having poor throtal control give you a fright, i have done it on my 250, maybe i am simply not as much of a guru as you are...

    But I am more skilled than a lot of riders with my experiance, and still had it happened. So what chance does a person with no experiance, skills or aptitude have?

    I don't know what your riding background is, maybee you were riding 400s around the bush since you were knee high to a grasshopper. But for playing in traffic i think learning on a more forgiving bike makes a lot of sense
  20. I read the original article that sparked all the letters, and while the argument about the latest crop of thou's being gentle enough in delivery for learner's could go on forever, the important part re: giving learners the top-end sporties was the big brakes and high quality suspension they have compared to the current LAMS crop.

    So basically the gist of it was a great LAMS bike would have a GS500-esque donk in a GSXR-spec chassis.