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Age and wisdom

Discussion in 'The Pub' at netrider.net.au started by russ, Sep 12, 2007.

  1. I thought I'd set a fire going and try roast a few marshmellow while i'm at it (that or eat popcorn ) :popcorn:

    Hornet (and others - but Hornet most recently :p )has mentioned a number of times in debate something along the lines of :

    "well I've been on this earth a lot longer than you have me-laddo therefore i'm right"

    In other words, age = wisdom.



    I counter this with: age is not wisdom, age is experience. And these are two very different qualities.
    At first it might seem to be a subtle difference, semantics even, but really the difference in these two qualities is massive.
    both can be good or bad qualities.

    A simple example. (since this is what I've been studying for a while)

    in 1884, John Singer Sergent, a 28 year old (having painted it whilst being 27) released this:
    [​IMG]



    experience would have told him not to release this painting since it defied convention. Expereince would have told him why it was inappropriate. Experience would have told him that it would destroy his reputation.

    It was released, and immediately lambasted by the aged and wise critics (and informed public), whose experience had taught them what was good, what fit the mould of 'good'. It destroyed sergents (and the subjects reputation)

    Much like manet before him (with l'olympia), sergent had challenged the established 'wisdom' and had been met with jeers. By 1906 the scandal of such an aggressively posed woman was deemed ridiculous and the painting was considered a masterpiece.

    now our experience leads us to laugh at the prudeness of these sentiments, our culture being so swamped in scantily clad women but is this wisdom? maybe in 200 years we'll have realised that our culture goes too far (and so on and so forth)


    So i say experience is good, it allows you, for example, to avoid a road becuase you know from experience that it is gravelly, potholled and crap. but it is not wisdom, because your experience can lead to stagnatation, you won't ever travel that road, you won't ever have found out that Joel had gone through and resurfaced it and it was now a riding paradise :LOL:
     
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  2. "Stupid" isn't something you grow out of over the years. I'd go so far as to say that some people have got it, some people don't, and age just makes them either more or less stubborn.
     
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  3. The old adage is you live and learn - but some people just live.

    IMHO Wisdom = experience + knowledge + thoughtful consideration leading to learning, all sprinkled with a smattering of original thought.


    Experience doesn't necessarily translate to learning... so experience alone is no measure of wisdom.

    IMO, when someones uses age as the only basis in an argument, to my mind they aren't being very wise - unless by virtue of age they posses a directly experential fact that the other does not have.


    If something truthful is said, "truth" doesn't care what age the utterer is - hence the saying "out of the mouth of babes..."

    meh - some random quotes for consideration.


    Wisdom Quotes:




    Experience quotes:




     
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  4. Nice write-up russ...

    It's amusing that neither wisdom or experience seems to stop the wiser and more experienced from beating their heads against the forum walls whilst trying to convince the less wise and less experienced that they are much wiser and experienced and therefor know better.

    err, I think that's what I mean anyway... :)

    It reminds me of a Mark Twain quote I once heard:
     
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  5. Experience means nothing if you do not have the insight to understand. On my emails I have a saying "To understand is more than to know".

    Wisdom is understanding you may know a part of the answer but not all of it.

    Using age as the determinate in judging someone's ability to know and understand is immature thinking. :grin:
     
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  6. The problem is when wisdom is met with someone who is not humble, or who becomes closed-minded.

    I hate people/institutions like that. Alot - they think they know everything and are so sure of it they won't listen to discussion because they must be right..
     
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  7. Thank you for using this quote to destroy your own argument, and the premise of the thread :rofl:.
     
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  8. Wisdom can NEVER come from someone who is not humble. True wisdom is knowing you can't and don't know everything. Immaturity is not governed by age but by mind.
     
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  9. ^ paul i felt the same way when i read that quote.

    phizog wrote
    the fortunate thing is there aren't many people like that in the world. those who are are usually young and learn eventually. it's part of the stair case of maturity, being able to identify and admire the person who can say 'i dont know'. ive only heard 1 dr say that in over 7 years of intense drs appointments. i was bloody impressed when it happened. the prob for drs is some people respond to the words "i dont know" with "what do ya mean ya dont know? are you like dumb or something? im gunna tell everyone u cant do ur job" etc

    -----

    anywho, all paul said was he's been around longer than us. even tho no one here is 'wrong' per say, and i am enjoying this part of the discussion emensely, i dont think it should keep going back to what paul said. you know, it's kinda like ya cutting him up on the operating tabe when in reality, we're talking about different levels of independent growth now. which is great! :grin:


    cheers :cool:


    hm, thats not like me, i never give sugestions on a thread. hm, must be the black daniels
     
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  10. Age or wisdom?

    Neither, i need facts.
    You won't believe what the 10yo knows theses days!!!
    So if you can back your claim with some reputable source, i might buy it.
    Those who push their age as quality, most likely have nothing else going for them but their birthday.. Blow your candles granny!!!
     
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  11. leave this ^ one to me, im editing this post as u read :LOL:
     
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  12. In God we trust - all else must bring data eh Supernego.

    Facts on their own don't equal wisdom. I've met some smart 10y.o.'s but not many wise ones.


    It's said that a smart man learns from his own mistakes, but a wise one learns from others mistakes...


    This wisdom thing is not very cut and dried. This is Will Durant's take on it: http://www.willdurant.com/wisdom.htm ...a very elegant short essay.
     
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  13. So, supernego, how about having the courage to post your age in your profile???? I'm guessing about 23 years old and an average ability to look up information on google, but not the wisdom to interpret it.....
     
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  14. Glad I could be of service... :)

    I wasn't trying to make an argument. I was just noting my amusement at the futility of 'old and wise' trying to convince the 'young and head-stong' that they are wiser and more experienced.
     
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  15. human development

    1 the psyche.............2, physical development,................3, intellectual growth


    all 3 aspects of human growth develop independently of each other. so you can have a person with many uni degrees by use of well developed aspect number 3 who is without common sense, social ability, and childish in manor by low level of aspect number 1 [emotional growth/maturity] that would present itself by inability to maintain relationships [friend/intamacy] in severe cases.

    so a person who has 'experience' can have an underdeveloped psyche that could be anywhere as low as pre adolesence [not likely at all but possible. other very serious symptoms would pressent if this be the case. a feeling of 'hollowness' for one, and is considered a mental illness.].

    a person who does not have experience in years, could have an over developed psyche, likely due to heavy onset experience [abusive father] in a short time, whereby the child would develop coping mechanism beyond his/her years [so long as the psyche does not freeze due to trauma].

    physical maturity [aspect number 2] doesnt side line age ether. for example, some girls start their menstral cycle early, some as late as 16 years.

    all 3 aspects of growth are independent and therefore not measurable by age AT ALL!. if it was to be measured by age, all 3 must be measured by age in months which is your 'actual age' which can be determined thru psychiatric testing procedure [where they add up your actual age in months].

    so basically, for example a 30 year old can have an actual age of 50, or even 10 years old [for aspects 1 &3], an 80 year old can have an actual age of 24 [for aspects 1&3], and a 9 year old girl can have an actual age of 14[ for aspect 2].

    and vice versa of course.

    now im going to confuse you and say HOWEVER;

    the brain itself does not complete development until age 22. a person who is aged is far more able to mature at a faster rate than anyone under 22 [although under 22s may be fast, they're not nearly as fast as they could be when over 22].

    this is because childhood development is extremely rapid and massive. tools for development need to be there before they can be used.

    now, i know what you're thinking, youre thinking 'but what about those people who are set in their ways stump? what about all those unreasonable, selfish, immature grandparents [not all of course] who
    are clearly behind in their development by a mile. if their potentual for development is inhanced, why are they so immature?

    answer, there are 2 reasons.

    1 all of our psyches have the ability to do 1 thing and thats freeze. this can happen during a traumatic event and 99% more likely during childhood. a frozen psyche has cut off the part of the brain that learns new things regarding maturity.

    so the subject is faced with the same lesson over and over and over again because they are not getting past it.

    unfortunately, the subject will never see the problem because that would require him/her to learn [mature].


    2 some people simply chose to stop learning. if this poor choice happens at a young age they will have all the follys of a young age. ie, selfish, etc.


    so, it's far more likely for an experienced person, by age, to have developed more in all three areas but not garanteed.


    the cases i spoke about were very extreme guys. i did that so it would be easier to understand.

    in simple terms, you're more likely to be more mature, intellectual, and grey with age but age is not how.

    years and experience are 2 very different things.

    you're genuinely more likely to gain more experience with age

    but this can be short tracked by problematic circumstances [such as mine] where social awareness and development is needed more so than intellectual by way of force, which led to paying deep attention and a steep learning curve into a wilderness that many people would not believe.

    anyone can surpass anyone. they're may be some immature netriders but that's not to say they wont surpass you by this time next year.

    cheers :cool:
     
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  16. and thanks for putting a smile on my face :)
     
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  17. Why are you after my age, are you making a move on me? :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: Paul, you are showing your age and maybe a bit of alzheimer's!!
    we shared a table, a beer and some chips in fiddler with Micky a couple of weeks back!! You forgot me already!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:
    :rofl:
    I know I'm pressing hard on you man, but i'm sure you're loving it.. I'll make up with some more beer next time, i promise...
     
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  18. 'tis the diversity of experiences, multiplied by the quality of the experience multiplied by the time of exposure, multiplied by the inverse of your age in years that creates your wisdom.

    d x e x t x 1/a = Joels Formula For Wisdom

    diversity is calculated by the amount of areas of life that you have experienced. quality is 1-10 on how thoroughly you experienced the facet of living and time is calculated in weeks. the age is required to keep the equation balanced, for memory retention reasons :LOL: work out your own Joels Wisdom Score and post it up! :rofl:
     
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  19. mine's better :grin:


    stump
     
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  20. I've always had a lousy memory for names, and not much better for faces :oops:.
     
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