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VIC Accepting payment for marshalling

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by jdkarmch, Nov 8, 2014.

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  1. This is going to upset the Apple Cart. But, I have to warn anyone who decides to accept payment for service -an any Event - you are breaking the law. No problem with volunteering, but the Law says no money must change hands.

    Motorcycle riders acting as marshals at an Ironman Competition being held on 16th November face heavy fines if they accept the payment being offered by Event Organisers who are desperate to fill 20 Marshall positions for the event.

    Riders are being offered payment of $110, Fuel Vouchers and lunch.

    The Victorian Taxi Commissioner has stated that he frowns on similar activity, when addressing the legal framework surrounding organisations like Uber and drivers who provide their services in return for Fee for Service.

    There nonetheless remain some serious issues surrounding such services. In Victoria, the driver of a commercial passenger vehicle must be accredited with the Taxi Services Commission, “primarily so we can check drivers against police records” according to Samuel.

    “Our focus is on safety and security”, he says, adding that if an Uber vehicle is not properly registered, it is “almost certainly not insured”.

    There is also the problem that the licence fee for a commercial passenger hire vehicle is fixed at $40,000 on the statute books. Samuel says he is open to discussing how this issue can be dealt with, highlighting the importance of cooperation between the regulator and companies.

    “There is an important need to protect the safety of passengers and drivers, and whilst Uber and other newcomers have massive commercial incentives to address safety themselves, strong safety regulation is still a requirement.

    Motorcycles and the provision of the type of service being sought by the Ironman Event organisers (the roles vary from pillioning photographers and cameramen to leading the first rider in, to carrying officials for scrutineering for drafting) are the domain of the Taxi Services Commissioner.
    The regulations covering Commercial Motorcycles include an Annual Licence Fee, Criminal History checks, Rider Pillion Experience (a rider must have a continuous 5 years riding history) and Public Liability cover.

    Riders who accept payment for service - at any Event are breaking the law. No problem with volunteering, but the Law says no money must change hands.

    I will be speaking to the Taxi Services Commissioner on Monday and requesting them to follow up on information about the wide spread abuse that I was made aware of this morning when I spoke to the organiser of the Ironman Event in question.

    If you are thinking about getting involved with any of these events or know someone who is - then think twice. the penalties are up to $10,000 I believe.
    • BS BS x 1
  2. WTF does the taxi commissioner have to do with marshalling an event?
  3. Its clearly not about safety if its ok to volunteer, but not accept payment. What a crock of shit.
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  4. why shouldn't the event organisers be prepared to pay for a commercially accredited rider, for a professional purpose?
    "the roles vary from pillioning photographers and cameramen to leading the first rider in, to carrying officials for scrutineering for drafting"

    Why do they expect 20 people to volunteer to carry their cameramen and photographers around for the day? they should hire professionals, with public liability cover :p

    do you think the riders carrying cameramen at marathons and bicycle races are volunteers?
    why would they risk using non-professional riders?

    so they want motorcycle riders to volunteer for payment, but no insurance cover....

    but for casual staff, they pay wages with full paperwork and require relevant licencing? seems like a double standard no?

    for actual volunteers, they are offering donations to relevant charity organisations etc
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Maybe because they think that its worth the risk. That the riders they choose will be capable and experienced.

    But, the real point here - is The Law. The Law under which commercially accredited riders operate, is the restriction here. As one of those, I have to knock back a lot of work/jobs because I have to only use properly commercially licence motorcycles, of which there are a limited number which I may access. This applies in Victoria and differs in other states.

    Every year I pay a fee to the Taxi Commissioner - so that I stay within the Law. In turn I expect the Taxi Commissioner to protect me from others who operate outside the Law.

    In this case the Event only has a budget that restricts how much they can spend. A Commercially Accredited motorcycle costs many time more to hire for a day. We have many costs to absorb, which the non-accredited riders do not.
  6. Yet those non accredited riders are probably better than 99% of the accredited one's who have big mouths.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. But, if the rider they choose are inexperienced, and unpaid that is illegal?
    To my way of thinking the payment should be secondary.
  8. The Taxi Commissioner has responsibility for all commercial operations. If there is no money changing hands - then the Taxi Commissioner has no duristriction.
  9. Or rather payment or not should be irrelevant.
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  10. You could say that. But the accredited riders have paid the Taxi Commissioner for the right to accept Fee for Service. It has very little to do with ability - rather it "qualification".

    I intend to chase that one down with the Taxi Commish on Monday. I have spoken to them before and their position was quite clear then.
  11. it's a similar issue to accepting payment for providing a car and driver for weddings.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. I stand by my previous comment. If the only difference between legal and illegal is money changing hands, then the law is not there to advocate safety.
  13. http://www.taxi.vic.gov.au/drivers/...assenger-vehicle-and-bus-driver-accreditation

    the law is there to provide a distinction between private and commercial.
    you have different obligations if you are driving your mates to the beach, than if you were driving strangers to the beach in return for money.

    hanging a photographer/cameraman off the back of your bike, while they have both hands on the camera... if they fall off are you liable?
    does being a volunteer excuse you from liability or are you covered under the event policy?

    it's only an issue if something goes horribly wrong :D but that is why there is a legal framework, to see who pays in a bad outcome.

    I don7t necessarily agree with it :p but the event organisers should be responsible enough to know that a volunteer is not paid.
    if they need to pay, then they are no longer volunteers and are employees or contractors, and there are different rules for those employment situations.. it's not complicated :)

    the difference is liability and responsibility, duty of care and all that mumbo jumbo

    same as if you fix a friends bike, or sell one privately, you don't have to provide a warranty.
    if you fix a strangers bike, or sell a used bike commercially, then you have to provide a warranty...
    • Like Like x 1
  14. And in Victoria, Wedding Cars must be Commercially registered by the Taxi Commissioner. Its no the individual - its the vehicle which must carry and display the appropriate registration plate.

    As I said from the start, I have opened a can of worms and look like upsetting the apple cart.

    The bottom line revolves around "payment" or "fee for service". I have no problem with them not paying any rider to perform the task. But, as a commercial operator I feel that I have been disadvantaged if the Taxi Commissioner allows this to happen, or overlooks this indiscretion. I'm left to ask, "Why have I paid $'000s to the Taxi Commissioner for the last 15+ years? If others are allowed to circumvent the Law, then I feel that I have grounds for complaint." Perhaps even a refund of all my licence fees? Who knows? I have operated inside the law, and it has restricted my business because I have had to knock back booking that exceeded the number of commercially registered bikes I could source.
  15. #15 коннор, Nov 8, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2014
    Think of the bigger picture, folks.

    How many days a years is your average volunteer rider going to 'work'? And how many days would one of them work if they were getting paid for it? One safety factor there.

    If you allow the sort of thing being discussed here, then it becomes possible for dodgy people to substantially undercut the regulated professionals without fear of being fined or charged with anything. They'd probably still be able to make as much money, too. So you get more people operating outside the various safety requirements people like Karmouch have to meet -- an even bigger safety risk.

    In short, paying 'volunteers' undermines the whole system of regulation and safety standards. The solutions are either what we have (no payment allowed), or making all volunteers comply with the same stuff commercial peeps do.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. I understand your angst JDK.
  17. Thanks for you support guys. I was half expecting to cop a lot of flack over this.

    I'll keep you posted on what answer I get from Taxi Commish next week.
  18. Can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with JDK, Uber and their ilk must be stopped dead.
    ever since Samuels changed things up it's been one big clusterfuk.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. +1 to that Smee. Uber is a cancer that doesn't fit into the current Taxi System model.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Doubt it's going to upset any apple carts – instead the result of queries will probably clarify and potentially appease any concerns.

    The bottom line doesn't revolve around payment, it revolves around classification.

    Volunteers can be paid in cash etc.
    See here: http://www.volunteer.vic.gov.au/man...g-and-supervising/expenses-and-reimbursements

    and here: https://www.ato.gov.au/Non-profit/E...workers/Volunteers/Volunteers-and-tax/?page=3

    Volunteers are covered by event organiser's insurance, eg.
    Ironman Canberra, Triathlon Australia etc.

    Ulysses Club is seeking volunteers: http://www.ulyssesmelb.com/content/request-volunteers-assist-ironman-asia-%E2%80%93-pacific-championship-be-held-sunday-22-march-2015

    Whereas Casual employees are a different kettle of fish.
    As an "employee" they'd need the necessary accreditations.

    Ballarat Ironman has advertised the job type as "casual" as opposed to "volunteer" but is offering same payment as that offered to volunteers. http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/bake...rgently-need-ironman-70-3-ballarat/1061110149

    Perhaps the job type description is a simple error.

    They're not offering payment commensurate with being a casual employee, and on face of it what they're asking doesn't appear to put riders in the "commercial" category of the TRANSPORT (COMPLIANCE AND MISCELLANEOUS) ACT 1983- SECT 87

    Agree, but for a slightly different reason. The requirement to hold an mc licence for at least 5 years for Restricted Hire Motorcycle accreditation says nothing about a person's riding – or more specifically pillioning – skills. Someone can hold an mc licence for this period without having ever pillioned anyone.

    Uber's something different again.
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
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