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NSW A win in court?

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' at netrider.net.au started by KingCasual, Mar 16, 2011.

  1. ...for those of you who have been stung with parking fines in the Botanic Gardens -
    i elected to go to court over two separate fines from September 2010.
    Despite the City of Sydney website trumpeting free parking for motorbikes within the city limits - there is an exclusion zone (the Botanic Gardens Trust) even tho they use the City of Sydney signage.... how are we supposed to know this?
    The judge saw fit to dismiss the fines under section 10 and told me i had to pay court costs of $79.
    Victory!
    What he forgot to mention was the court costs are for each fine, AND a victims compensation levy of $64 - also for each fine!
    Total owing... $286!
    could've just paid the bloody fines and saved over a hundred :censored: dollars!

    What a rort!


     
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  2. How is it that you can win and still have to pay costs ? Shouldn't the City of Sydney pay the costs if the fines have been dismissed ? Sounds bizarre.

    Congrats on the win, though, good one !
     
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  3. Yep, the court process for fines and infringements is totally fked.

    I had 2x $50enforcement costs from SDRO which they admitted was an error but insisted I had to go to court to have the matter considered. But the cost to go to court is more than the fine so I asked if I'd have my court costs waived, they said no its not refundable in this circumstance. Complete BS.

    Another issue, had a court date assigned to a date I was overseas. Despite making it 1000% clear that I would be away during XYZ date when submitting the court application. I come back from OS to find that my court date already happened so I was automatically guilty, had enforcement costs + victim compensation levy. OMFG I was angry. Contacted courts who advised I can get it annulled and go back to court.. of course it will cost me $79 x 2.. for their mistake.

    I eventually got the issue sorted, but not before again being incorrectly slapped with $100 enforcement costs.

    Speaking to their CSRs you constantly get different answers to the same question. I was told flat out I was wrong about an issue, I was to blame and could do nothing about it. Wasn't until I got on to the supervisor that they admitted it was completely their fault and will of course fix it.

    The system is farked, so much for a fair go.
     
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  4. The way the court system "works" is that you plead guilty (to the charge of overstaying the time limit) but you then explain the circumstances in order to have the charges dismissed under 'Section 10'.
    Hence the court costs being paid by me (the supposedly guilty party)


    Does anyone go to court over parking fines anymore? or are we all under the thumb of bureaucracy?
     
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  5. Who has the time? :-(
     
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  6. @conspiracytheorist
    Jeez - and i thought i was getting ripped off!
    this whole thing is outrageous!
     
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  7. Victim's compensation levy :-s
    How the f*&k is the City of Sydney in any way a victim of anything but their own stupidity and greed?
     
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  8. NEWSFLASH!
    just spoke to City of Sydney - they are looking at updating the info on their website and also their misleading parking maps AND possibly coughing up for my expenses to boot!

    ...keeping my fingers crossed
     
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  9. I you have been forced to pay a VICTIMS COMPENSATION LEVY for a parking violation you can apply to the Legal Services Branch of Attorney Generals Office in NSW and it will be refunded. (see attached)

    If you have paid it, contact the Legal Services Branch, NSW Attorney General's Office, to request a refund.

    Phone 02 8224 5330
     
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  10. That's great news!
    See attached what?
     
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  11. #11 CivilRightsFigher, May 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2014
    Apologies, attachment was too large. Here is a link to the announcement of the legislation change:

    http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/sessionalview/sessional/sr/2011-144.pdf

    Apply to the Legal Services Branch of AG's office and they will refund the Victims Compensation Levy you have paid for any parking or standing offences.

    I wrote about 15 letters to everyone from Local MPs to the AGs office, Chairman of the Victims Compensation Fund and opposition government at the time to get this one off the books. A complete and utter violation of civil liberties to fine someone for something not even remotely connected to the offense! What a pack of mongrels the former NSW Labor government was!

    http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/sessionalview/sessional/sr/2011-144.pdf
     
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  12. King casual, well done..

    I am fighting the exact same thing. I find it ridiculous they can impose court costs when they have been negligent in bringing this to court anyway.

    I had written a letter to the SDRO outlining exactly my case, which is eactly of that above that on the city of sydney website they mention you can park for free anywhere, added to that there is simply the artefact of 'mens rea'. I.e Simply that a crime cannot be committed if there is no 'guilty intent' which there cannot be if teh council website says its ok to park there.

    At that time the map was not updated so did not exclude the botanic gardens. effectively they said tough shit, go to court, which i have.

    clearly I was am confident, especially as this was the same defence you employed i think.However, im very shocked you had to pay costs. the last time i went to court about overtaking a police car to the left (lane splitting) when i won i did not have to pay anything.

    Thats a disgrace if you do. It is your civil right to challenge any allegation (bear in mind our taxes pay for this system which is effectively meant to protect our rights).

    What i also find ridiculous is that I cannot seem to search traffic court verdicts to see any precedents.

    If they try and impove court costs I will appeal this if they do. I find that ridiculous.

    For the people who think this is a waste of time.. it clearly is not... these are you rights and you should never, ever give them up so easily otherwise the government just uses that as a de-facto argument to impose further restrictions.

    to me the cost is irrelevent. its the principle

    Does anyone have a copy of the previous map ?

    Thanks M
     
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  13. #13 MorganCarr, Aug 3, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2014
    i just spoke to the attorney generals office. ALL Parking fines SHOULD NOT have any victims compensation levy.

    Actually the reason you had to pay court costs is the below, section 10 effectively finds you guilty, but with no action taken.

    The issue here is guilty versus not guilty. they could have just dismissed this case wherein you would haev had no costs, unfortunatly this did not happen for you.

    The expression “section10” refers to section 10 of the Crimes (Sentencing Procedure) Act 1999. This section allows a Court that finds you guilty of an offence, to discharge you without recording a conviction. Because there is no conviction, there is no criminal record. Additionally, there is no loss of drivers license and no other penalty.
     
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  14. 1. There was no victory. Unless you are found not guilty it nearly always is cheaper to pay the infringement. The same has been mentioned here.
    2. The person who heard your case was a magistrate.
    3. The fines were not dismissed by the magistrate. They were withdrawn when you elected to take the matter to court.

    Justus.
     
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  15. Justus,

    I simply do not agree.

    they know most people think like you and cant be bothered going to court and just pay the fine.. thats how the cycle continues to go on. I was contracting earning a lot in a day rate, but to me again its the principle of the matter and rather than pay their 80 dollar fine i was quite happy to give up more than 10x that on the principle alone.

    I have fought a number of my charges in court and have not lost yet. Be aware though you have to provide reasons why you are not guilty, but a little research into the law normally will provide an answer, or leeway at least.

    note I would not fight all cases, but where it cannot be proved i am guilty those are the ones to fight. the onus is on the court to prove beyond a doubt you are guilty. most magistrates in my experience are well aware this system exists as a pure cash cow. if you have an intellectual argument they are very happy to hear it and indeed rule in your favour...

    remember policemen etc are not lawyers or judges... is it really not for them to decide whether youre guilty or not. that is for the judiciary to decide.

    Also Court costs are only normally applied if you waste the courts time. you have a right to be heard and show your case. even the fact you do not get a brief until 10 mins before your case is to me an infringement of your rights.
     
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  16. http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/ABOUTSYDNEY/ParkingAndTransport/MotorCycleParking.asp

    http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/...ndTransport/MotorcycleParkingOffstreetMap.pdf

    the sum total of the City Of Sydney's motorcycle parking advice is only this.... "Motorcycle and Scooter riders no longer need to buy or display a ticket in the City of Sydney, which includes the CBD, Pyrmont, Redfern, Ultimo, Darlinghurst and Kings Cross. Simply park as you usually would, and remember to observe the time restrictions. If you need to park all day, use an untimed motorcycle-only space instead."

    There are no exclusion zones listed on the maps.
     
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  17. With what?

    OP ended up paying more than the face value of the infringement and you call that a win? Unless OP went to the County or Supreme Court, the person who heard your matter was not a judge. Upon objecting to the fine, the council will usually send you a letter acknowledging the fine has been withdrawn. Whether or not you received such a letter does not change the fact that this is what happens when you object the TIN. Once the TIN(s) have been withdrawn they fail to exist.

    The court cannot dismiss a fine that does not exist.

    Three simple factual points, so what exactly do you not understand or agree with?

    How is any of this relevant to the three points mentioned in my previous post?

    That is rubbish Morgan.

    Court costs have nothing to do with wasting the courts time. Court costs are rather payable when the charge noted on the infringement notice(s) have been proven ie. when you lose , and those costs will vary depending on how many offences were heard. If you had two parking offences and those charges are proven as they were, you'll have two lots of court costs to pay.

    The magistrate did not forget to tell you anything. It's not the courts issue if you choose to represent yourself with no training in court processes.


    So much crap in two pages. Good effort.

    Justus.
     
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    • Like Like x 2
  18. What legislation in particular? Provide all the details for verification.

    That is a private home number. Just spoke to Martia and she is PISSED OFF.

    Justus.
     
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  19. As anyone would be. It is not even remotely like the AG's number -

     
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  20. Illiterate and full of shit.

    Justus.
     
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