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[VIC] Blitz on Eastern Freeway this morning (Wed 29th)

Discussion in 'Politics, Laws, Government & Insurance' started by TonyE, Feb 29, 2012.

  1.  
    adprom

    adprom Camry Driver Premium Member

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    Wtf has any of this got to do with the argument to use bicycle lanes or the law at hand? Not only is the information above irrelevant, some of it is just downright incorrect... i.e. claiming that every rider who rides into the city filters at some point... You obviously haven't followed a lot of scooters that just sit in traffic and never filter at all. There are a proportion of riders out there who never filter which is their prerogative. To claim that every rider, probably filters at some point is unqualified bollocks.

    You are making statistical claims with no actual data to back it up... Then you wonder why people come back and essentially tell you that you aren't credible. Whether it was your idea or not, you are the one who bought up the "single tracked vehicle lane" here and more importantly you are holding the defensive position. So don't try palming that off to someone else now that you got a bad response to it...



    P.S. I live in the city. Your 'observations' at best are just that.

    Firstly you have just just accused somebody of bullying and then references their ethnic background in a derogative manner to the person. Poor form and hypocritical. On that point, just because somebody doesn't fight for some side circus to the real issue that you believe in doesn't make them gutless... It just shows that they might have a little bit of a clue about the bigger picture and there are bigger fish to fry.

    Wtf are you on about... Bus lanes are not bicycle lanes. The logic doesn't hold that if an exception is made somewhere, then it obviously will be made elsewhere.

    In particular the bit where you say "BVN know that we will have a case to be allowed in their lanes" - ummm no they don't and no we don't. There is absolutely no logic behind that what so ever. Logically the bus lane trial does not imply bicycle lanes are appropriate. The bus lane trial is with bus lanes, not a trial to give motorcycle riders carte blanche access to everything else... In fact even if we manage to get filtering sorted, due to the fact that bike lanes are there to protect bicycles and bicycles alone, bicycle lanes may still be out of bounds for us (alternatively by winning the filtering argument, it might fly under the radar and we just get to use bicycle lanes anyway).

    Either way, raising bicycle lanes right now, just detracts from the real filtering argument and there is absolutely nothing to gain (not to mention politically you look foolish for even touching the cyclist's area - they are a protected species in politics - and there is no way BVN will support any powered vehicle using the bicycle lane).

    Quoting irrelevant statistics, and observations as if they are statistics is not a good look and does your already limited credibility no wonders. No one gives a flying ferret how much you ride every week and what you do when you don't make a coherent argument and show basic disregard to the larger picture. You refer to your argument as 'thinking outside the square' and no one has thought of it... You really think that arguing to use bus lanes is 'thinking outside the square' and is something uniquely special to yourself? The real truth is that no one else is dumb enough to fight that front and destroy their own credibility except for yourself in the current circumstances especially when filtering is getting wider support! It certainly isn't because people haven't 'thought outside the square'. How the hell you think fighting for bicycle lane access is thinking outside the square is absolutely beyond me...
  2.  
    smee
    Curious

    smee MODERATOR: Devil's Advocate Moderator

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    many many hundreds but certainly not thousands using bike lanes like you claim.
    I'm not even going to justify the stupidity of this comment
    More self aggrandising mumbo jumbo from an ego that can't accept it's irrelevant.
  3.  
    jdkarmch
    Amused

    jdkarmch Premium Member

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    You might live in the city - but it doesn't sound like you get out much and see what is going on out there. I ride around the city a lot, I cover every street, lane, bicycles path over about a month. Its clear to me that you rarely even step outside your apartment - to actually experience what is going on.

    Now, I am out there almost every day. I know what I'm seeing and I see it often. You are wrong, wrong, wrong FFS - another bloody cage driver - who pretends to be a genuine motorcycle rider.

    The language Smee and Chef use, is typical bully behaviour. He proudly espouses his Greek heritage. I just chose to draw that fact out and throw it back at him - to demonstrate my point.

    And my heritage? Let's see, for the record its Middle Eastern, Russian, Jewish, English and Scotch. Want to throw that back in my face and join the other Bullys? And trust me I was bullied as a kid over my heritage.

    And how do you know that BVN aren't running scared. The Bus Lane Trial will set a precedent that will open very big doors.

    I raised the point that many riders got booked during Operation Halo.

    You are probably right saying we should just forget bicycle lanes - but, that isn't going to help the poor sods who are going to get stung by the cops in the future.

    I just offered an idea - thinking oust side the square. I'm disappointed that people can't get outside of the square that they are too afraid to get out of.
  4.  
    jdkarmch
    Amused

    jdkarmch Premium Member

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    Thanks - apologies for the snipe at your heritage.

    But, as usual you started it and pulled history into it...... Numbers? its just numbers.
  5.  
    smee
    Curious

    smee MODERATOR: Devil's Advocate Moderator

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    No actually you started it when you kept pushing your irrelevant barrow about sharing bike lanes, you were told then years ago it won't happen and you should know by now it will never happen.
    All the other in correct shite you espoused is just that incorrect and irrelevant, like you have become now that you are no longer the pres.
  6.  
    adprom

    adprom Camry Driver Premium Member

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    Wtf are you talking about? I didn't know you stalked me and new exactly what I do... Ffs you really don't have a clue, do you? I'm not going to get into some pissing contest about what I ride, where I work, when I drive etc... I live in the city, I am out every day - I see and know what is going on in the city - you aren't so special to think that you see something, and if others don't agree then they mustn't be out there.

    The idea that you cover every single street and bicycle path in the city in a month is just absolutely ludicrous and barely worth even responding to.

    Could you possibly be any more childish and petulant in that response? I can't even think of a way.

    The point was that you were the one who was derogatory about it... If they choose to do that, they can... It doesn't give you the right to be derogatory about it.

    You have just highlighted your own delusion, that you think I actually care? I couldn't care less where you come from - I do care about you making illogical arguments and presenting them as if they have good support when they don't. Oddly you didn't actually acknowledge that the single tracked vehicle lane wasn't yours until it was getting lambasted, and then you couldn't pass it off as someone else's quick enough. Now that is poor form on both counts.

    Because anyone with half a clue can tell that they aren't running scared. It is called logic.

    It's got nothing to do with thinking outside the square ffs. Drop you own self serving, over inflated view of yourself and realise that you aren't all that, and really aren't half as smart as you think you are. You are not arguing for something new, unique or particularly well thought out.

    The problem with jdkarmch is that it is all about jdkarmch. Everything from the avatar, through to the ACA/TT interviews. Absolutely no self awareness whatsoever.

    Yes I am right, because it is as obvious as the light of day to most people out there that fighting a political issue like this is a really stupid idea and no one really cares if you personally got fined.
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  7.  
    jdkarmch
    Amused

    jdkarmch Premium Member

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    So? Should riders have been booked on Wed morning. They were being done for filtering as well as using bicycle lanes. I know, I watched a guy being pulled over for filtering just before I got booked.

    Yes, I am just an ordinary rider now, who represents only myself. So, I have very right to biatch and moan and complain about people who purport to represent riders who are making no progress. Now the shoe is on the other foot and I am claiming my right to voice my views.

    In fact, I would say that I am just as irrelevant as you now Smee. You are a member of the do nothing say nothing club[-(

    Time to stop now, I'm about to go out and hop on my HD for and take a ride over to Vermont to have coffee with Neilo. I'll be thinking of you - me on my bike - you stuck in a classroom.
  8.  
    smee
    Curious

    smee MODERATOR: Devil's Advocate Moderator

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    if they were in the bike lane but not turning left then yes they should have been booked.
    If they were filtering then no they should be left alone, pretty simple isn't it?
    The difference here is that they seem to be doing something positive and slowly getting the recognition and support we have been craving for years, unlike when the old mra was a farce
    you know nothing
    Have fun.
  9.  
    robsalvv

    robsalvv -MA Bronze onroad Coach- Moderator

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    John, I can't believe that you just said that Rob Smith got booked because of his inability to have the bicycle lane laws changed. What a stupendously bone headed thing to say.



    Drew, I tend to agree, whipping around a car using the bicycle lane would contravene the rule I posted up.


    - - -
    Tapatalking loud, saying somethin'
  10.  
    Chef

    Chef Hool again Premium Member

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    Speaking of which. I wasn't anywhere near this thread until you pulled me into it, and now that I'm here I'm glad that you did.

    Each year a fresh batch of newbies arrive at the site and begin to wonder what all of the 'fuss' is about when it comes to their representation. They get perplexed why there is apparent animosity towards you and why the leaders and thinkers cannot work with you.

    This thread now stands as a shining example of your attitude, behaviour, beliefs and thought processes, so they can wonder no more.

    You've been told to shut up all the way from the brand spanking noob up to the Godfather of rider advocacy, Ray Newland. You've gotten everybody offside in this thread, as well as others and the list continues to grow daily.

    You are a team of one, and you will continue to be so till the end of your riding life. Get used to it, good luck with it. We're interested in the protection of riders, we're not interested in you.
  11.  
    titus
    Paranoid

    titus Pestiferous Varmint Moderator

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    All for sharing the lanes, whatever you want to call them, but I have been convinced that it's politically unwinnable in the current climate.

    Filtering is the main prize IMO. Let's get the bus lanes locked in first of all. Advanced stop boxes and filtering as a follow on from that. Shared lanes might be next (I have been wondering whether they should be part of an ambit claim, though? Or does it put the filtering campaign at risk?).

    The climate we find ourselves in is one where VP members need to find every last infringement to help pay for their pay rise, so common sense is no longer in the mix. Since I don't want to be a contributor, I'll continue doing my share of 'sharing', but not where the odds are against me. Let 'em find a softer touch.
  12.  
    Chef

    Chef Hool again Premium Member

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    This is not a campaign of money making, we really need to move away from the premise if we want to make inroads with the decision makers.

    The Halo blitz is all about compliance and nothing else. The bus lane interpretation needs to be seen from that perspective alone to provide the insights to problem solving.

    The same goes for filtering. The reason riders can't appeal to the po-po's reasoning on the side of the road is because they're arguing the WRONG point. YES they may be filtering in a safe manner, NO the po-po do not give a flying fuck. They are there to apply the law without discretion or interpretation. You're either 100% compliant or you're getting a ticket.

    A rider can argue compliance but not definition to get out of a ticket.

    Rider advocacy must argue definition to have the laws changed, so riders can continue with the behaviour but still be 100% compliant.

    The compliance model is not going to change, not ever and it is now being enforced without room to move. The margins of the law we've lived in in the past are in the process of being closed for good.

    We either get ourselves written in the rules or we get hammered everytime we step outside the boundaries.

    The painted lines on the road are the boundaries that keep the boxes inside them. We are being forced inside the boxes whether we like it or not.

    Filtering is the first real push to get us redefined as being outside the box. It is a slow arduous process because of one little problem.......compliance.

    The answer that came back to us when the idea was pitched up to Vicroads was simple in it's purity. "If we change the rules for you, how do we enforce the new rules?"

    That's the key that turns the lock of progress. They threw safety in there for good measure, but they're mad keen on enforcement. Arguing safety is a distraction from the real game, arguing revenue is a distraction from the real game. The question the safetycrats are asking themselves at their desks and in the board rooms right now is, how can they control us. They believe if they can control road user behaviour they can control the roadtoll. It's absolute horseshit but they're thinking it anyway. It's time for us to start thinking like they do, so we can get what we want. Or we'll just continue to get rolled by the system eh?
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  13.  
    jdkarmch
    Amused

    jdkarmch Premium Member

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    Rob, agreed that is somehow what I was alluding to. And as at 6th March - for the record I was wrong and I categorically apologise to Rob for making any such inference. None of this was, or should ever have been attributed to him.

    Read my later posts where I talk about what Tony E had said to me about - Single Tracked Vehicle Lanes.

    Maybe I was a little out of line in accusing Rob of being the cause, when what I actually meant is that it is our combined actions - or lack there of - which has brought us to this point. That being one where the police can enforce a law that is not based on evidence to justify it existence - as it relates to PTW.

    I have enormous respect for the work Rob Smith does. He is the first person that I turn to for advice and counsel in relation to any matter related to riding. I want to stress to anyone reading this that Rob Smith is one of our leaders and that he deserves the highest respect.

    In this case I used he and others - who have been working closely with Govt and Vic Roads - and their inability (against great odds, and not without great effort) to express my sorrow at the fact that it has [seems to have] all come to nought - so far. As at 6th March I have since discussed this matter with Rob and he has briefed me on the considerable progress that is being made on this subject. There is a lot happening behind the scenes.
  14.  
    TonyE
    Curious

    TonyE Moderator

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    A year or so back I had an interesting discussion with a gentleman from Bicycle Victoria. What came out of it was that there was no way they could discuss sharing anything called a "Bicycle Lane".

    However if some sort of re-classification was possible for some lanes - the wider ones on places like Church St or Bridge Road being prime examples - then they might be open to discussion. This would involve a new type of lane - "Single-Track Vehicle Lane" was one suggestion.

    I did talk to a couple of Local Government people who received it positively but were obviously politically terrified.
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  15.  
    titus
    Paranoid

    titus Pestiferous Varmint Moderator

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    Hmmm. OK.
    Then I suggest we start thinking like the permanent departmental secretaries, because they are the real decision makers. The secretary of the police ministry will have presented Halo to Ryan for sign-off. You can bet there was a cost-benefit analysis in there.

    If I read you right, you're saying provide them with the documentary material that makes correct decision-making easier (?)
  16.  
    Chef

    Chef Hool again Premium Member

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    Fooked if I know bro. I do strategy somebody else needs to do logistics.


    All i know is the political landscape and motorcycling advocacy has dramatically shifted and we're still trying to chip at it with an outdated icepick.

    There has been a recent shift in approach which hasn't yet delivered results. A further shift is required.

    I'm more inclined to focus on bringing riders who are observing into the new model. Collectively we need to shift our thinking if we want to support those who go into pitch for us.

    Continually dragging discussions back to defunct ideas such as 'revenue raising' isn't doing any of us any good. We're being trapped by our thinking into rehashing the same mistakes, and collectively we're not furthering the discussion from which ideas, information and knowledge needs to evolve.

    There is a post I should make some time about why m/c's are being targeted the way we are, and why blitzes like Halo will be inevitable. It is a road toll story, but the connections are disparate.

    The question is, why are motorcycles a threat to their road safety model? No it's not because we keep getting squished.

    Interestingly, the blitzing method wont achieve the outcome they're looking for. But it does put on a good show, and the show is more important ;)
  17.  
    titus
    Paranoid

    titus Pestiferous Varmint Moderator

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    Let's be blunt, then. It's the non-compliance (or rather, lack of submission) that bothers them, not the road toll. That's why bicycle lanes are included.
  18.  
    Chef

    Chef Hool again Premium Member

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    Yep yep.....but it's the problems that our non-compliance causes that's killing them.

    They can make the cagers compliant because let's face it cagers have sweet f all options, but the most important part is they can get cagers to buy into their road safety model.

    The compliance (nanny) model in simple terms is, if you obey the law 100% it will save your life.

    Doesn't wash with riders though. Riders figure out if we rely on the law to save our life we're as good as dead. Much much better for us if we make our own decisions about our safety independently of the laws.

    Here's the problem in a nutshell. Cagers see us thinking for ourselves and ask how can we get away with it if they can't....it's the 'what about them' syndrome? That's why we've seen a rise in drivers taking the law into their own hands and attempting to enforce 'road rules' against us, such as blocking us when we split.

    100% compliance zero tolerance models work if nobody is rebellious, yet here we are. Motorcyclists are rebellious by at least some percentage by nature. By doing the different thing we begin to take on different thinking. Thinking like a cager while riding a bike will see us deader than an election promise in no time.

    So out of all of the road user groups we're the most subversive and threatening to our nanny. Disobedient we are and rebellious we'll be, which can trigger non-compliance in the cagers. We set a bad example to the other road users.

    As much as our non-compliance is a threat to them, our compliance is a threat to us. So it's fantastic battle of will. Can they get riders to kneel before their authority?

    They've set themselves as the Omnipotent all knowing all seeing masters of our lives. Yet riders discuss ad-nauseum amongst ourselves that to place our lives and trust into the hands of others is to pay dearly with our lives. That's a life placed into their responsibility that they simply walk away from and place the blame back onto us. It's that hypocrisy that riders intuitively sense but can't place their fingers on.

    They're treating us like cagers and want us to act like cagers. They're doomed to failure because we'll never be cagers. They'll continue to smash us until something gives. Our European kin know this, they refuse to give.
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  19.  
    MT1
    Dead

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    i don't like the roadshow when it targets bikes in congested traffic, doing what they do.

    pulling them up presents an image to all the cagers that the bikes are doing something wrong or illegal.
    reaserts cager opinion that bikes should not be there among them. hence some cagers feel justified to give bikes a hard time. if the police are doing it to us. then we are fair game for abuse or worse.

    filtering is my god given right.
  20.  
    adprom

    adprom Camry Driver Premium Member

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    Truest thing said yet - something so many beigists will never get and makes their heads explode...
    • Like Like x 2
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